PharmD's are not doctors!

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Ever degree (BS, MS, RPh, PharmD, PhD, MD) has its gems as well as its clowns.

I've been an MSL for some time and seen good and bad MSLs who have a variety of backgrounds. I worked with an older gent who had a BA in Biology nand was very good with the science and talking with KOLs. I've also seen PhDs and PharmDs get all caught up in their "title" and forget its about the KOLs needs, not theirs.

Conversely, I have run into some non-terminals (an a few Ds) who were nothing more than glorified reps and give all of us a black eye. Again, its the person NOT the paper. While soem generalizations can be made, do not over or under estimate the MSL.

As Rodney said, "can't we all just get along"?
 




Anonymous said:
The PharmD degree is a professional doctorate much like an MD, but the difference is that the PharmD is the equivalent of obtaining Master's degree.

Further, pharmD's cannot treat or diagnose, they can only recommend a medication therapy to a provider, including MD's, DO's, PA's and NP's. It's funny PA's and NP's do not possess doctorate titles but have undergone the same number of years in education?

Further, PharmD's cannot manage a disease, it is absurd that they run the pharmaceutical industry. Pharmacologists, PhD's yes, definately, but Pharmacists? It is a useless degree with little value. MD or DO is the best for the MSL job, and I'd take a PA or NP over a PharmD any day--they're better prepared for disease management which entails pharmaceuticals.

As for PharmD's see below:

"For the last 15 or 20 years," says John D. Wiley, chancellor of the University of Wisconsin at Madison, "we've been under pressure to take what is basically a master's degree and call it a doctorate."
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Wooooooo hooooooo! Was the first to bust the water balloon at the county fair! Done got myself a PharmD as my prize!
 




Anonymous said:
Wooooooo hooooooo! Was the first to bust the water balloon at the county fair! Done got myself a PharmD as my prize!
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You have to love these people obsessed with degrees, titles and roles they could never aspire to or earn.

Most PharmDs and PhDs rarely use their titles except when their employers require it.

Take your medication and go away. Every few months you surface, like a case of genital Herpes, to dredge this topic up from the past.

Get the hell over it!
 




I just happen to run across this site and I'm so disgusted the way some of you adults (if that's what you are) talk to each other. It's embarrasing. The bickering back and forth of who is called what. Call yourself whatever you want, you are bringing in the money to support yourself and your family which is the only part that matters.

I'm about to start Pharmacy school and let me say, as a Pharmacy Technician for 4 years I have seen many interesting things. Nurses who don't even know the simplest of sig codes or drugs, Doctors/Nurses prescribing medications that could possibly kill the patient, etc. Yes, Nurses do a great job helping patients and yes Doctors of Medicine do a great job diagnosing 80% of the time; however, please do not knock down your fellow colleagues (Pharm-D's). Without them, some of you wouldn't have a job anymore or you would be facing a lawsuit from killing a patient.

I do agree a Doctor of Medicine lifestyle is a little more hectic than a Doctor of Pharmacy's lifestyle. That's the way life is, some professions are more hectic than others. Their is nothing you can do about it. Coming on a website complaining about your title is pathetic. You joined this profession to help the people, but obviously that isn't enough for some of you. You don't want well respected individuals (Pharmacists) of the community to be at the same level as MD's.

Well- let me be frank guys.The patients can do all the talking. They value a Pharmacist tremendously. I always hear the patients call them Doctors, even though they don't commend it. You wait, sooner or later Pharm-D's will be writing prescriptions. This is what Doctors of Medicine fear the most I think. Their level of authority will be equal to something. It just shows you why many went into this profession. Not for patients well being, but for the title. That is scary folks, scary indeed.

But you know what, I'll get a nasty response from this message. The point is, you are a very unhappy individual. You are unhappy with where you are in life, you are unhappy with decisions you made, you are unhappy with yourself. I just don't understand how you can "hate" another profession so much. They play their part in this world, just like you do.

This is coming from a 20 year old...Grow up.
 




Anonymous said:
The PharmD degree is a professional doctorate much like an MD, but the difference is that the PharmD is the equivalent of obtaining Master's degree.

Further, pharmD's cannot treat or diagnose, they can only recommend a medication therapy to a provider, including MD's, DO's, PA's and NP's. It's funny PA's and NP's do not possess doctorate titles but have undergone the same number of years in education?

Further, PharmD's cannot manage a disease, it is absurd that they run the pharmaceutical industry. Pharmacologists, PhD's yes, definately, but Pharmacists? It is a useless degree with little value. MD or DO is the best for the MSL job, and I'd take a PA or NP over a PharmD any day--they're better prepared for disease management which entails pharmaceuticals.

As for PharmD's see below:

"For the last 15 or 20 years," says John D. Wiley, chancellor of the University of Wisconsin at Madison, "we've been under pressure to take what is basically a master's degree and call it a doctorate."
Click to expand...

We are so sorry about your tiny penis. We suggest that you seek counseling or seek disability for your lack of crotch material.
 




This thread is rediculous.

I'm a MSL. I have a Ph.D. degree. I don't care that I have a Ph.D. degree. I care that I am a MSL.

I LOVE the sales reps I work with.

Yes I work for a company that firewalls sales activities from medical activities and definately has changed the role of the MSL over the past couple of years to a more clinical role, delivering non-promotional scientific information aligned to the medical platform, developing our thought leaders through discussion of scientific publications and L&R approved medical slide decks, engaging KOLs in our clinical studies, and supporting pipeline and post-marketing studies. We've definately moved away from combined activities with sales.

Does this mean I don't talk to my sales reps and strategize with them? HELL's NO!! We're on the same TEAM (not literally, that would be non-compliant...duh). When a sales rep has a problem with a customer (sometimes my KOLs) that doesn't buy into some promotional message and is not prescribing, I talk to them and see who I can modify or challenge that OLs thinking so that they are in-line with our sales and medical strategy (these two are aligned..no shizen!). If I can move that OL's opinion of the sales message from a negative to a neutral, then that's a win. If that can lead to increase scripts for that rep, then that's a BIG win.

Likewise sales reps help me! Sometimes my OLs suck and I got have access. The reps will often have contact with these guys and they'll faciliate an introduction. Or if they hear something that my OL is doing or seeing, they'll call me!

So, whether you got a Ph.D., a PharmD, a MD, is freaking IRRELEVANT. Its a Job.

At the end of the day, whether you're sales or a MSL, you both have to make sure your company is doing well, so that you can collect your pay check and go home at the end of the day and spend time with the wife, family and have a glass of wine.

So instead of discussing whose a Ph.D. , Pharm.D., or M.D. we should be sharing best practices on how sales resp and MSLs can work together in light of this regulatory, compliance driven environment we're in.

I've suggested a few. Come on let's hear them..we're all in the same boat here.

Sales Reps...YOU RULE!!!
 




I don't blame all the sales reps for being mad. Their rein is fast coming to an end. Oh there will still be the UPS reps dropping off samples but that's it. Now they won't even be able to drop off pens much less take you to a ball game (oh I miss those days). I must say it was much more fun when sales was at its height of power in the industry. I wish we could go back. My golf game has suffered.
The reality is that, like it or not, Medical Affair is growing in power. They are the only ones who can talk off label and that's what physicians want to hear.
As for the make-up of MSLs, Nurses are a pain in the ass, whining too much. Physicians are great but very high maintenance, primadonnas, wanting to do what they want not what the company wants. Ph.D.'s are great to talk to top KOLs especially about pre-clinical or early development projects. Pharm.D.s are the best all around because they are better communicators, not as much of a pain in the ass, and cost less than physicians.
 




In the United States, since the late 1800s, the threefold degree system of bachelor, master and doctor has been in place, but follows a slightly different pattern of study from the European equivalents.

In the United States, most standard academic programs are based on the four-year bachelor's degree (most often Bachelor of Arts, B.A., or Bachelor of Science, B.S.), a one- or two-year master's degree (most often Master of Arts, M.A., or Master of Science, M.S.; either of these programs might be as much as three years in length) and a further one or two years of coursework and research, culminating in comprehensive examinations in one or more fields, plus perhaps some teaching experience, and then the writing of a dissertation for the doctorate (most often doctor of philosophy, Ph.D. or other types such as Ed.D., Psy.D., Th.D.) for a total of ten or more years from starting the bachelor's degree (which is usually begun around age 18) to the awarding of the doctorate.

This timetable is only approximate, however, as students in accelerated programs can sometimes earn a bachelor's degree in three years or, on the other hand, a particular dissertation project might take four or more years to complete. In addition, a graduate may wait an indeterminate time between degrees before candidacy in the next level, or even an additional degree at a level already completed. Therefore, there is no time-limit on the accumulation of academic degrees.

Some schools—mostly junior colleges and community colleges, but some four-year schools as well—offer an associate's degree for two full years of study, often in pre-professional areas. This may stand alone, or sometimes be used as credit toward completion of the four-year bachelor's degree.

In the United States, there is also another class of degrees called "First Professional degree." These degree programs are designed for professional practice in various fields rather than academic scholarship. Most professional degree programs require a prior bachelor's degree for admission (a notable exception being the Pharm.D. program), and so represent at least about five total years of study and as many as seven or eight.

Some fields such as fine art, architecture, or divinity have chosen to name their first professional degree after the bachelor's a "master's degree" (e.g., M.F.A., M.Div.) because most of these degrees require at least the completion of a bachelor's degree while the first professional degrees in medicine (the M.D.), pharmacy (the Pharm.D.) and law (the J.D.) are doctorates. There is currently some debate in the architectural community to rename the degree to a "doctorate" in the manner that was done for the law degree decades ago.

It is important to recognize that first-professional degrees in these fields are different than research-oriented degrees and comparisons to the Ph.D. are problematic

Give it up to the PhD.

The rest of us are emulating "mastery" of a discipline but have not gone through the rigors of PROVING mastery to the scientific community. Some attain mastery. Some attain a good job. Some flounder.

It really is more of an issue of what you do with the education than what education program you went through. I have two degrees. Matters not what they are for this forum. I have a good job, understand my role and am effective. How about you?
 




Just as prices are inflated, so are academic degrees. I earned my PhD and MD back in the old days when you had to jump through hoops to create a truly original piece of research. It was tough, and you either made the cut or you were out. Only about 50% of candidates made it at the high end, and most terminated with a Master's degree.

Now that I am in practice, I look less at the degree and more at the person. If you can communicate complex scientific information in a coherent and engaging manner, I don't care if you have a PhD, PharmD, MD or DDS. It is the strength and integrity of the person involved and not the collection of letters behind their name that are most important.
 




I just have to say that I am a Doctor who received his PharmD prior to going to medical school. I was educated at an Ivy League Medical School and just wanted to state that I think this argument is insanity. An MD is a professional degree for which I did not have to write a thesis. My PharmD is a professional degree for which extensive research was required. Having done both degrees, I can honestly say that the Doctor of Pharmacy program was MUCH more intensive than medical school. It was imperative in Pharm school to understand BOTH the biological and chemical aspects of disease state and amelioration whereas med school was more of a cookbook checklist of examination and diagnosis. After 4 years of pharm school which consisted of 4 years of therapeutics (read here: diff dx and pharmacological therapeutic assessment), med school really was a breeze. The disciplines are so cross compatible these days that the argument over whether someone is a real doctor or not is just rediculous! The real problem that we have out there are the PA's. They are VERY high on their horse and to be honest are the greenest of them all. PharmDs are outstanding for pharmacological implications of drug therapy--MDs are great at diff dx and managing care but the PA's that I have encountered have fallen short in every possible way. I really hate to say this, but in truth and in fact, the are the ASSISTANTS to the physician and would be well served to remember that. NOTHING that they do can occur without the supervision of a licensed physician and that includes prescribing. They do not have independent prescription authority, everything MUST be supervised and checked by an MD. PharmDs and MDs have earned professional degrees, regardless of your take on them. PAs are the dangerous ones because they truly believe that they ARE the doctor and in most situations that I have seen have clearly overextended their professional boundaries.
 








Anonymous said:
I just have to say that I am a Doctor who received his PharmD prior to going to medical school. I was educated at an Ivy League Medical School and just wanted to state that I think this argument is insanity. An MD is a professional degree for which I did not have to write a thesis. My PharmD is a professional degree for which extensive research was required. Having done both degrees, I can honestly say that the Doctor of Pharmacy program was MUCH more intensive than medical school. It was imperative in Pharm school to understand BOTH the biological and chemical aspects of disease state and amelioration whereas med school was more of a cookbook checklist of examination and diagnosis. After 4 years of pharm school which consisted of 4 years of therapeutics (read here: diff dx and pharmacological therapeutic assessment), med school really was a breeze. The disciplines are so cross compatible these days that the argument over whether someone is a real doctor or not is just rediculous! The real problem that we have out there are the PA's. They are VERY high on their horse and to be honest are the greenest of them all. PharmDs are outstanding for pharmacological implications of drug therapy--MDs are great at diff dx and managing care but the PA's that I have encountered have fallen short in every possible way. I really hate to say this, but in truth and in fact, the are the ASSISTANTS to the physician and would be well served to remember that. NOTHING that they do can occur without the supervision of a licensed physician and that includes prescribing. They do not have independent prescription authority, everything MUST be supervised and checked by an MD. PharmDs and MDs have earned professional degrees, regardless of your take on them. PAs are the dangerous ones because they truly believe that they ARE the doctor and in most situations that I have seen have clearly overextended their professional boundaries.
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PharmD school harder than med school? Oh come now. You must have gone to med school in the Caribbean.

Tool!!
 




Anonymous said:
PharmD school harder than med school? Oh come now. You must have gone to med school in the Caribbean.

Tool!!
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I personally know three PharmDs who went on to med school. The Pharmacy school was pretty highly rated, and the med schools were also high level. They all unanimously agreed Med School was much easier. The internship and residency... not so much.

These guys arent FPs, either. They are an Opthamologist, a Cardiologist, and an ID doc. All tough specialties to get in.


Of course, someone who completed med school would also probably have an easier time in Pharm school if they went there second. Many of the classes are similar, and having a baseline in Pharmacology, Therapeutics and Pathophys would make either school easier.
 








I don't think that anyone is trying to say that PharmDs do not earn their degrees or that it is not a difficult program. I think the point is that when you finish an undergrad and then go back to school for 2 more years +/- writing a research thesis this is typically called a masters degree rather than a doctorate. Then there is the trend that many if not most PharmD programs have dropped the research thesis requirement. And finally that many students do not even have the bachelors degree. Just 5 years total with no research. That is a masters at best not a doctorate. This is degree inflation just like the article cited in the earlier post mentions.
 




Apparently those of you who are posting on this site have no idea what a PharmD degree entails. It is not a "2 year degree" and it is certainly not a "5 year degree" when including undergraduate years. A PharmD degree is actually 4 years, and that's standard across every pharmacy school in the country. What CAN be reduced is undergraduate years. Students can complete undergraduate requirements in 2 years, and complete a PharmD in 4 more years. That's a MINIMUM of 6 years. Even in this case students do, in fact, earn their B.S. as well. They are granted it within a year or two of pharmacy school. Furthermore, it is becoming increasingly common to require a 4 year bachelors degree before pharmacy school. Many schools now do this, and it will become the norm sooner or later. That's an 8 YEAR DEGREE. I would never trust health care from a nurse over a PharmD. Pharmacists are the drug experts, not nurses. They receive very highly specialized training, including hospital work and acute care. Their clinical impact is more significant than you realize. Before you sound off on a blog about the pointlessness of one degree over another, you better do your research.
 




In response to the person above who claims the "RPh" is given the title PharmD without the addition of much didactic work...apparently you don't know that 20-30 years it only took 5 years to earn an undergraduate and pharmacy degree combined, but now it is 6 -8 years. Many schools now require 8. Just how do you think they added on another 3 years? It's called MORE SCHOOLING.
 




Anonymous said:
In response to the person above who claims the "RPh" is given the title PharmD without the addition of much didactic work...apparently you don't know that 20-30 years it only took 5 years to earn an undergraduate and pharmacy degree combined, but now it is 6 -8 years. Many schools now require 8. Just how do you think they added on another 3 years? It's called MORE SCHOOLING.
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In response to the PharmD degree, many states changed the title of "registered pharmacist" to "pharmacy doctor" (from R. Ph. to P. D.) back in the 1970s. That change in license title did NOT automatically confer a doctoral degree, because it was in the framework of a regulatory change and NOT an academically earned degree.

In some states, even if you have a PharmD you cannot use the title unless you are actually licensed to practice pharmacy.

P. D. (pharmacy doctor) and R. Ph. (registered pharmacist) are interchangeable titles for the purpose of recognizing licensure to practice pharmacy in those states who use the respective title. Being a P. D. does not mean you actually HAVE a doctoral degree of any kind.
 




Re: PharmD's are Doctors!

First of all, it is clear you have serious reservations towards us, & it is obviously due to you feeling inferior to PharmDs, & with just cause. We are SMART! We are experts in medicine, chemistry, biochemistry, pharmacology, advanced mathamatics, & last but definately not least, PHARMACOKINETICS! We have every right to be pompous, arrogant, & treat you like shit, no matter who you think you are.
Not only do we know our drugs, but we are very familiar with all disease states, now for arguments sake, I will say what we get in our professional years is comparable to medical school, however, the reality is we are better equiped with diagnosing & treating disease states then any general practitioner is, & I am not even considering NP & the PA as real practitioners from the get go, but some how they are walking around prescribing drugs with very little, if any, knowledge on what the hell they are doing. Lets face it,all they are, are a hazard & nuisance to society. I actually had a NP come to me & question why I did not allow a Zosyn order to go through with a patient that has a clearly documented PCN allergy in their chart, known to need epipens in the past. This idiot had no idea Zosyn had a PNC in it, yet, she is ordering it for a unsuspecting patient. The same goes for some MDs, for that matter. If it weren't for pharmacists & PharmDs, there would be a lot more fatalities & irreversible medical errors in the world. The only draw back about being a PharmD, is simply not getting the recognition we damn well deserve, but hey, at least we get paids loads of mullah for our awesome & endless knowledge :)

bye,
You pathetic loser....
 




Re: PharmD's are Doctors!

BrilliantPharmD said:
First of all, it is clear you have serious reservations towards us, & it is obviously due to you feeling inferior to PharmDs, & with just cause. We are SMART! We are experts in medicine, chemistry, biochemistry, pharmacology, advanced mathamatics, & last but definately not least, PHARMACOKINETICS! We have every right to be pompous, arrogant, & treat you like shit, no matter who you think you are.
Not only do we know our drugs, but we are very familiar with all disease states, now for arguments sake, I will say what we get in our professional years is comparable to medical school, however, the reality is we are better equiped with diagnosing & treating disease states then any general practitioner is, & I am not even considering NP & the PA as real practitioners from the get go, but some how they are walking around prescribing drugs with very little, if any, knowledge on what the hell they are doing. Lets face it,all they are, are a hazard & nuisance to society. I actually had a NP come to me & question why I did not allow a Zosyn order to go through with a patient that has a clearly documented PCN allergy in their chart, known to need epipens in the past. This idiot had no idea Zosyn had a PNC in it, yet, she is ordering it for a unsuspecting patient. The same goes for some MDs, for that matter. If it weren't for pharmacists & PharmDs, there would be a lot more fatalities & irreversible medical errors in the world. The only draw back about being a PharmD, is simply not getting the recognition we damn well deserve, but hey, at least we get paids loads of mullah for our awesome & endless knowledge :)

bye,
You pathetic loser....
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At the end of the day, as long as the coin is coming my way, I don't give a rat's ass about the "D" behind my name. I agree about pharmacists preventing med errors in many cases. MDs are trained in basic pharmacology, but don't totally get it sometimes and make mistakes. But, if ANY of the members on my team with a "D" behind their names gets a superiority complex, I put them into a rear naked choke and bring that to a quick conclusion.

Ultimately, the best MSL teams have a mix of PhDs, PharmDs, and MDs. It makes for great discussions on different medical/scientific aspects and everyone has their own strengths. There are fundamantal differences between first professional vs academic level doctoral degrees, but.....so what?? You are hired to do a job, do it well, support the entire commercial organization to your best ability, and develop those relationships that have importance to the company as a whole.
 




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