PharmD's are not doctors!

[Anonymous]

In some countries like Italy and Brazil, pharmacists are called by their doctoral titles (if they have them) and have independent prescribing authority for different types of minor illnesses.

Yup.....and they make the equivalent of $30K /year. And M.D.'s only make $110K/yr[/QUOTE]

And your source for this information is...WHAT? I have access to salary surveys for over 60 countries in a health economics database and you are pulling numbers out of your ass.

MDs in Italy are lucky if they break 60K Euros per year. It's socialized medicine and most physicians in Europe earn less than half of what their American counterparts will ever make. Pharmacists in Brazil may make $30K equivalent per year, but the cost of living is far less than in the northern hemisphere.

Pharmacists in the United States usually make over $85K a year, and most make more than $100K if they work full time. The average primary care physician (internal medicine, family practice, pediatrics) makes around $120K a year.

What you are paid in a socialized health care system is not comparable to what you are paid in a market-driven system. You seem to resent what pharmacists make because your lunch-ordering, sample-delivering ass makes less than what a fully unionized Fedex or UPS employee ever makes. And the Fedex & UPS guys are more useful than you ever will be.

You can feel so smug and superior with your bachelor's degree in psych or business from Loser State U. Repeating and misinterpreting a PI does not make you overpaid catering waiters worth nearly half of the money that a pharma company wastes on your resentful, jealous ass.

 

[Anonymous]

Yup.....and they make the equivalent of $30K /year. And M.D.'s only make $110K/yr

And your source for this information is...WHAT? I have access to salary surveys for over 60 countries in a health economics database and you are pulling numbers out of your ass.

MDs in Italy are lucky if they break 60K Euros per year. It's socialized medicine and most physicians in Europe earn less than half of what their American counterparts will ever make. Pharmacists in Brazil may make $30K equivalent per year, but the cost of living is far less than in the northern hemisphere.

Pharmacists in the United States usually make over $85K a year, and most make more than $100K if they work full time. The average primary care physician (internal medicine, family practice, pediatrics) makes around $120K a year.

What you are paid in a socialized health care system is not comparable to what you are paid in a market-driven system. You seem to resent what pharmacists make because your lunch-ordering, sample-delivering ass makes less than what a fully unionized Fedex or UPS employee ever makes. And the Fedex & UPS guys are more useful than you ever will be.

You can feel so smug and superior with your bachelor's degree in psych or business from Loser State U. Repeating and misinterpreting a PI does not make you overpaid catering waiters worth nearly half of the money that a pharma company wastes on your resentful, jealous ass.[/QUOTE]

This ranting sounds like a PharmD who is totally a PharmDUMB. Another reason why there IS no difference in a PharmDUMB and an illiterate. Deal with the issue as a professional and stop name calling Sales. IF it were not for sales you would be counting pills...get over yourself.
Oh am I am an MSL not sales..

 

[Anonymous]

This ranting sounds like a PharmD who is totally a PharmDUMB. Another reason why there IS no difference in a PharmDUMB and an illiterate. Deal with the issue as a professional and stop name calling Sales. IF it were not for sales you would be counting pills...get over yourself.
Oh am I am an MSL not sales..[/QUOTE]

A bit resentful that you did not have the brains or grades to get into the health professions? Envious that no health professional takes you seriously when you flash the shiny sales aids, deliver lunch or lie to the window witch so you can throw other companies samples out?

I'll raise my PharmD, MS and PhD to your...NOTHING. Sounds like you have a major case of doctoral envy. Poor widdle you....

You might be an MSL--but in your case it stands for Major Sales Loser.

Keep repeating your delusional superiority over and over again, and maybe in a few thousand years it might become reality.

Go back to your POD meeting.

 

[Anonymous]

This ranting sounds like a PharmD who is totally a PharmDUMB. Another reason why there IS no difference in a PharmDUMB and an illiterate. Deal with the issue as a professional and stop name calling Sales. IF it were not for sales you would be counting pills...get over yourself.
Oh am I am an MSL not sales..

A bit resentful that you did not have the brains or grades to get into the health professions? Envious that no health professional takes you seriously when you flash the shiny sales aids, deliver lunch or lie to the window witch so you can throw other companies samples out?

I'll raise my PharmD, MS and PhD to your...NOTHING. Sounds like you have a major case of doctoral envy. Poor widdle you....

You might be an MSL--but in your case it stands for Major Sales Loser.

Keep repeating your delusional superiority over and over again, and maybe in a few thousand years it might become reality.

Go back to your POD meeting.[/QUOTE]

Did that make you feel better? Good.....
Now do not forget to take your pills and please have mommy kiss you gpood night and may the bed bugs bite.....

Stupid fucking fool

 

[Anonymous]

A bit resentful that you did not have the brains or grades to get into the health professions? Envious that no health professional takes you seriously when you flash the shiny sales aids, deliver lunch or lie to the window witch so you can throw other companies samples out?

I'll raise my PharmD, MS and PhD to your...NOTHING. Sounds like you have a major case of doctoral envy. Poor widdle you....

You might be an MSL--but in your case it stands for Major Sales Loser.

Keep repeating your delusional superiority over and over again, and maybe in a few thousand years it might become reality.

Go back to your POD meeting.

Did that make you feel better? Good.....
Now do not forget to take your pills and please have mommy kiss you gpood night and may the bed bugs bite.....

Stupid fucking fool[/QUOTE]

Awww...looks I hit a nerve...go back to jacking off to internet porn in your mommy's basement and delivering pizza in your Gremlin. You know shit about industry and even less about anything else.

 

[Anonymous]

Did that make you feel better? Good.....
Now do not forget to take your pills and please have mommy kiss you gpood night and may the bed bugs bite.....

Stupid fucking fool

Awww...looks I hit a nerve...go back to jacking off to internet porn in your mommy's basement and delivering pizza in your Gremlin. You know shit about industry and even less about anything else.[/QUOTE]

Yes little boy. You feel better now??? Good little boy..now drop your pants and take it good like the little boy that you are..........

 

[Anonymous]

Awww...looks I hit a nerve...go back to jacking off to internet porn in your mommy's basement and delivering pizza in your Gremlin. You know shit about industry and even less about anything else.

Yes little boy. You feel better now??? Good little boy..now drop your pants and take it good like the little boy that you are..........[/QUOTE

 

[Anonymous]

boy this post certainly did deteriorate fast

 

[Anonymous]

The silly pill pushers got angry when someone called them out with the truth.

 

[Anonymous]

The silly pill pushers got angry when someone called them out with the truth.

I know. Reps really hate it when you talk about just how incompetent they are!

 

[Anonymous]

While the whole thread is borderline ludicrous, I feel like I need to clear up some misconceptions. First, original entry level degree in pharmacy is a Bachelor of Science in Pharmacy. Registered Pharmacist or RPh is a legal distinction given by a state board of pharmacy for passing the boards and being licensed. However, RPh has come to signify the bachelor degree. And make no mistake it is a bachelor of science. Now, as to the PharmD or Doctor of Pharmacy, it is really irrelevant as to whether they are called doctor or not. The sole purpose of the degree was to give a more clinical background for pharmacist primarily those who endeavored to work in hospitals. The original PharmD degree was a two year post bac program added on to the initial five years to get a bachelors. Most programs consisted of a year of didactic followed by a year of clinical. Most pharmacists decided to forgo the extra two years because oddly enough, it didn't initially translate into higher pay compared to retail pharmacy. So those who gravitated to it were a different breed. Then for whatever reason (probably money) despite no real market demand, pharmacy schools and the accrediting agency decided to make the Doctor of Pharmacy the entry level degree by adding another year of school. Thus diluting the degree but lining the pockets of Pharmacy schools.

Those of you with other science degrees who think you can get a PharmD with just two more years of school are highly mistaken. It doesn't work that way.

The larger question isn't whether a PharmD, or PhD or NP or PA should be an MSL, but whether MSLs are even viable going forward in the pharm industry. In my opinion, an MSL is a fluff position that will be eliminated in the near future. Now, I am sure that there will be a huge backlash from the MSLs, but they know deep down I am right.

 

[Anonymous]

Seven year MSL here, PhD. The MSL position is not likely to be eliminated altogether. It will be redefined, and there will probably be cut-backs in the next 5 years or so. But I predict alot more rep lay-offs first, especially in primary care. When there are 3 reps from the same company calling on one doctor who is being pressured for time by capitation, there has to be lay-offs. It's not the same for MSLs who call on academic people who may have only one or two days of clinic at the University Hospital. The key is to find a company with a good pipeline, because the MSLs are really at their best when taking about new entities.

 

[Anonymous]

I am amazed that the enmity between sales and medical affairs still lingers after all of these years. There are some sales reps out there with scientific backgrounds or health professions licenses, but they are fewer and far between as time goes by.

It is not a question of what your background is, but what function you have with the company. Sales moves product, and medical affairs provides information to make sure the product is used safely and effectively. They both interact with the same audience, but medical affairs is more geared towards research and pipeline products.

Please excuse the language, but please get the f*ck over yourself if you think you are more important than the other. You have different roles, and if you can't accept that--quit industry and go work elsewhere.

 

[Anonymous]

While the whole thread is borderline ludicrous, I feel like I need to clear up some misconceptions. First, original entry level degree in pharmacy is a Bachelor of Science in Pharmacy. Registered Pharmacist or RPh is a legal distinction given by a state board of pharmacy for passing the boards and being licensed. However, RPh has come to signify the bachelor degree. And make no mistake it is a bachelor of science. Now, as to the PharmD or Doctor of Pharmacy, it is really irrelevant as to whether they are called doctor or not. The sole purpose of the degree was to give a more clinical background for pharmacist primarily those who endeavored to work in hospitals. The original PharmD degree was a two year post bac program added on to the initial five years to get a bachelors. Most programs consisted of a year of didactic followed by a year of clinical. Most pharmacists decided to forgo the extra two years because oddly enough, it didn't initially translate into higher pay compared to retail pharmacy. So those who gravitated to it were a different breed. Then for whatever reason (probably money) despite no real market demand, pharmacy schools and the accrediting agency decided to make the Doctor of Pharmacy the entry level degree by adding another year of school. Thus diluting the degree but lining the pockets of Pharmacy schools.

Those of you with other science degrees who think you can get a PharmD with just two more years of school are highly mistaken. It doesn't work that way.

The larger question isn't whether a PharmD, or PhD or NP or PA should be an MSL, but whether MSLs are even viable going forward in the pharm industry. In my opinion, an MSL is a fluff position that will be eliminated in the near future. Now, I am sure that there will be a huge backlash from the MSLs, but they know deep down I am right.

I vociferously disagree here. The MSL position isn't going to simply "eliminated" in the "near future", and not because I am trying to defend the position per se. Look at a bigger picture here.....the government and many in it are looking at Big Pharma much like Big Tobacco has been viewed in the past. Now, mind you, this treatment of Pharma is WAY over the top with many politicians (i.e. Senator John Edwards, etc), and state governments but like it or not, the industry is viewed with a huge amount of suspicion and skepticism due to activities and court cases over several years. Look at the example of Washington, DC now trying to pass a measure in the city government requiring sales reps to get "certification" before even selling to physicians. Crazy and misguided....absolutely. Will it be useful...probably not. But, if they enact it, you can have all the arguments you like, but it will still be in place and require sales reps to jump yet through more hoops. And we haven't even talked about the institutions that are locking out sales forces, and even professional medical societies placing restrictions on what physicians should or should not do. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. If anything, sale rep activities are likely to be FAR more restricted in the future, which will make that medical contact all the more imperative in many locales.

This doesn't mean that the CURRENT role of the MSL won't change either....believe me, it will. We will see a person required to be even MORE of a jack of all trades and in touch with the physicians/KOLs out there, and will require far structured approach to their roles. However, they still won't sell, as that clearly crosses the line set forth under the "Safe Harbor" concepts of the OIG guidance.

Keep in mind....even in the light of the contributions to medicine the industry has made, we are still going to be under a microscope for some time to come.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry angry pill pusher. I could care less about a "web site ranking". The fact of the matter is a Medical docotr is held as the highest standard of formalized education.

Go back to Walgreens, PDR boy.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but PhD is considered the highest academic acheivement. Now whether that qualifies them to be MSLs is an entirely different debate. I have been in MSL and MSL Director role for 7 years, I have found that physicians prefer to speak with other MDs first, PhDs second and PharmDs last. The first 2 are considered to possess extenisve clinical or scientifc expertise while PharmD does not. Obviously, this is a board statement as I have met PharmD with impressive scientific knowledge and MDs as dumb as a box of rocks. In case you are wondering, I am a PhD

 

[Anonymous]

Most Current PharmD students already have 4 year degrees, it is very tough to just do the pre-reqs in 2 years and then jump to the 4 year pharmD program. Most graduates will have 8 yrs invested. This is probably the reason most will receive 10+ six figure job offers before they even graduate. The other truth lost in the shuffle here is you can not BS your way through a PharmD program like you can 4 years of a business degree at a state college which is the background of your typical drug rep jerk-off. So stop hate'in

 

[Anonymous]

The degree is a starting point not an ending point! Personal characteristics and experience and potential round out the picture.

As an MSL director I could care less which "D" my team members have. Each degree has some characteristics that are typical, but like with most stereotypes there is a lot of inter-person variety.

Yes some MDs offer a clinical perspective and that "peer" affinity off the bat. But some MD MSLs have never completely a residency and have never "practiced." Also some MDs are brilliant while others cannot grasp the technical elements required to excel at the MSL role. Also some can't check the ego at the door and come off as obnoxious pricks.

PharmDs? This group has tremendous variability. Some of the best MSLs that have ever worked for me are in this group. At best they are bright, have relevant clinical experience in the disease they are working in and maybe have some teaching or research experience to boot. At worst they are marginally effective pharmacists that have gone back for a professional masters program that will never earn the respect of the KOLs or even the reps in their territory. Companies like them because they are easy to find, easy to train and rarely push back on the companies interpretation of the data and usually stay in the role for many, many years without getting too board (especially if there is a potential manager carrot dangling in front of them).

PhDs are usually hit or miss. Overall they tend to quickly gain the relevant technical skills and usually comprise the go to people on the team for those hardest to answer questions. They problem is that 80%+ of PhDs would make horrible MSLs because they lack the interpersonal skills or the ability to pull the discussion up out of the details. When you find that rare combination of a bright PhD, with strong interpersonal and presentation skills AND who can talk the big picture without getting lost in the weeds they will make an incredible MSL. Remember KOLs grew up learning from PhDs and will have huge respect for a PhD that brings them educational value. Some companies don't like PhDs cause they innately challenge the company line on the data (as they were trained to do). Again most PhDs would be train wrecks in this job, but those that get it are superstars.

KOLs will respect and learn from a great PharmD MSL, they will view a great MD MSL as a peer, and they will defer to a great PhD MSL.

Again, look at the individual rather than the degree. I have seen individuals with each degree possess and demonstrate each of the skills and weaknesses I have attributed to each stereotype. The most important thing is that you have all three degrees represented on the team so that the entire team benefits from the diverse skills that are unique to each degree.

For the record I am a PhD.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but PhD is considered the highest academic acheivement. Now whether that qualifies them to be MSLs is an entirely different debate. I have been in MSL and MSL Director role for 7 years, I have found that physicians prefer to speak with other MDs first, PhDs second and PharmDs last. The first 2 are considered to possess extenisve clinical or scientifc expertise while PharmD does not. Obviously, this is a board statement as I have met PharmD with impressive scientific knowledge and MDs as dumb as a box of rocks. In case you are wondering, I am a PhD

No, no one was wondering, as witnessed that since Jan 8 no one even posted a comment on this subject. In case you were wondering, we were not only Not Wondering, We Don't Care what you are!

 

[Anonymous]

The degree is a starting point not an ending point! Personal characteristics and experience and potential round out the picture.

As an MSL director I could care less which "D" my team members have. Each degree has some characteristics that are typical, but like with most stereotypes there is a lot of inter-person variety.

Yes some MDs offer a clinical perspective and that "peer" affinity off the bat. But some MD MSLs have never completely a residency and have never "practiced." Also some MDs are brilliant while others cannot grasp the technical elements required to excel at the MSL role. Also some can't check the ego at the door and come off as obnoxious pricks.

PharmDs? This group has tremendous variability. Some of the best MSLs that have ever worked for me are in this group. At best they are bright, have relevant clinical experience in the disease they are working in and maybe have some teaching or research experience to boot. At worst they are marginally effective pharmacists that have gone back for a professional masters program that will never earn the respect of the KOLs or even the reps in their territory. Companies like them because they are easy to find, easy to train and rarely push back on the companies interpretation of the data and usually stay in the role for many, many years without getting too board (especially if there is a potential manager carrot dangling in front of them).

PhDs are usually hit or miss. Overall they tend to quickly gain the relevant technical skills and usually comprise the go to people on the team for those hardest to answer questions. They problem is that 80%+ of PhDs would make horrible MSLs because they lack the interpersonal skills or the ability to pull the discussion up out of the details. When you find that rare combination of a bright PhD, with strong interpersonal and presentation skills AND who can talk the big picture without getting lost in the weeds they will make an incredible MSL. Remember KOLs grew up learning from PhDs and will have huge respect for a PhD that brings them educational value. Some companies don't like PhDs cause they innately challenge the company line on the data (as they were trained to do). Again most PhDs would be train wrecks in this job, but those that get it are superstars.

KOLs will respect and learn from a great PharmD MSL, they will view a great MD MSL as a peer, and they will defer to a great PhD MSL.

Again, look at the individual rather than the degree. I have seen individuals with each degree possess and demonstrate each of the skills and weaknesses I have attributed to each stereotype. The most important thing is that you have all three degrees represented on the team so that the entire team benefits from the diverse skills that are unique to each degree.

For the record I am a PhD.

Wow, I am sure the record just like the rest of us were waiting with bated breath to find out your degree.
I think we got the picture when you said an MD will defer to a great PhD MSL. You remind me of the witch in Snow White. She saw herself differently than what the mirror saw. I have not seen an MD defer to a PhD, at least not a PhD who works in industry, the evil empire in most of the MD's mind. You lost that (self-perceived at least) status when you left the university setting. You work for industry now who operate on P&L and that is how you are viewed, you now longer work in a lab; for the record.

 

[Anonymous]

Yup...it's obvious PhD's can't communicate in a clear precise manner, they need to over-explain the content of their prose, then rationalize the didactic manner of their delivery, and with some sleuth-worthy wordsmithing care,... politely announce to the world that they are higher in stature than the nearest degree-laden sloth in the presence of his/her highness!!
For your information, I've f*cked more PhD's than you have!!