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Medical Sales College. Is it for Real?

Why would a rep with GREAT relationships be looking for a job? If you really had great relationships you would also have a GREAT non-compete! Furthermore you should have GREAT business therefore not needing a job. What you interview is a bunch of underperforming sales people that TELL you that they have GREAT relationships. Ask any hiring manager how many times they have hired an existing representative with relationships and how often they really moved business? You will find that they answer is almost never! Yet, they sucker you out of high guarantees to move the relationships you really don’t have! Great medical sales reps are not looking for jobs. In fact, if they were, they would never need to interview they would network with someone they already know. If you are really good, trust me other companies know who you are! Unlike pharm, medical sales reps are not being laid off!

I would rather take my shot at a new rep with no bad habits. MSC trained, even better!


Thanks Jim!!
 




I am part of a management team that toured the Medical Sales College a few weeks ago. Let me start by saying that the idea is not only brilliant but also a matter of time before more entities like the Medical Sales College will appear.

In my 21 years in the device business, I cannot remember an upcoming year that will have more of an effect on our industry than 2013. This week the IRS finalized the details and exemptions as to the Medical Device Excise Tax:

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Newsroom/Medical-Device-Excise-Tax

The ramifications will extend well past innovation of medical devices; it will include how we market those products today! The impact related to industry selling organizations will be greatly noticed. This once great industry will certainly evolve into a much lower paying profession. Gone are the days with representatives making HUGE commissions. The average income will probably settle barely into the six-figures. A sales rep could become more of a hospital service rep requiring less selling and more case covering. Although total number of representatives should remain or experience minimal growth, the industry is set for serious consolidation as the smaller providers will find it impossible to profit under this new law:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2012/12/07/the-taxman-cometh-to-medical-robotics.aspx

So let me get back to the reasoning’s for this post. Our executive management team has been preparing for this impending tax for the past several months. Several of our distributors and direct hiring managers have had experience with the Medical Sales College. Internally, we have been looking at ways to reduce or eliminate unneeded or replaceable expenses. We have used both internal talent specialist as well as outside recruitment assistance. From a budgetary standpoint, we spend a very large dollar amount in these areas. In the opinion of our company, the Medical Sales College can really benefit our organization in multiple ways. Obviously they can eliminate all fees associated with recruitment and allow us to downsize internally in that department. Equally if not more important, they offer a trained sale rep that frankly, is a much more affordable hire. Again, my opinion is that the industry will materialize into a lower paying model that the more experienced device representative will find it hard to swallow. Hiring an eager selling representative outside the industry at a lower compensation cost will be wave of the future. If that individual has related medical sales training experience and we have not participated in the cost of such training, even better. It was unanimous amongst the management team in support of utilization of the Medical Sales College.

I hope this helps those interested in feedback on the Medical Sales College or the industry.

Jim, nice positioning statement.
 




MSC quickly buries with spam this particular review from one of their victims.

Medical Sales College doesn't seem to like this review by one of their victims... perhaps because they feel it's accurate. In fact, they very quickly respond to it by burying it under tons of spam. Check it out:


I can tell you from personal experience and after paying a total of almost $10,000 to attend their MSC that they are taking money from people who they recruit and after they go through their program and have paid their $6500 in tuition they are told on the day they "Graduate" with worthless certificate not to call the recruiting offices every week because they are working on getting every graduate an interview. I was recruited after finding a job listing on careerbuilder.com. I sent my resume to the email for the job listing and was contacted by EliteMed recruiting and was told due to my background that I would get a job very quickly and would probably have job offers before I finished their MSC program. The program is 8 weeks with 4 weeks being at home and the other 4 is at their office in Colorado. So, I was required to pay $3250.00 and they would send me a program binder to start the program and I had to pay the rest before I arrived in Colorado for the last 4 weeks. I paid $1800 for the room I stayed in while in Colorado and about $800 for food and drink while in Colorado. My flight was $300 for round trip. So I spent $9400.00 total on the program. The same guy owns both the MSC and Elite Med recruiting. However, the only thing I can say positive about the experience is the 4 weeks in Colorado I was taught by two guys who were exceptional in being able to teach and for being very knowledgeable. This however was not worth the alomost $10,000 I spent. I have not had ONE interview set up by Elite MEd. I have had two interviews that I got through LinkedIN and when asking the guys who interviewed me if they had talked to Elite Med or if they had seen my profile on their website etc, they said my interview had nothing to do with Elite Med and the only positive response I received from both interviews about the entire MSC experience was they were impressed that I spent almost $10,000.00 toward getting into medical sales. I am still waiting to hear from them this was just a little while ago that I had the interviews. Also, the primary thing that bothered me to begin with is that while I was in Colorado I found out that the recruiters that I dealt with initially worked in total separate offices and separate floor from the recruiters I dealt with as I graduated from their program. I found out that the recruiters who post all these job opportunities, or at least the ones who were recruiting me to begin with are strictly recruiting for new students to go to MSC. I saw this with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. On a break during a class while in Colorado I wondered into the hallway next to the class room and there were offices on each side of the hallway. The doors were open and within a 15 minute break I heard 3 different recruiters make at least 3-4 phone calls where they had brief conversations with people telling them they had great backgrounds but needed to attend the MSC program so they would have the experience they needed. I was also told during my initial recruiting that they MSC had hiring managers from several companies that routinely visit the school for recruiting new prospects. Well, in my 4 weeks we had one guy come in and talk to us for a few minutes and since nobody had heard the name of his "company" before and asked him about the "company" we learned he was a local distributer and only hired people to work strictly commission. I can also attest that I personally know that some of the people they have listed on their site as successful placements were in my class who I still keep contact with who found their jobs with no help from Elite Med and didn't like when they learned that Elite listed them as to take credit. The way they keep up with you is they assign you a "recruiter" for your area that is sitting in an office in Colorado and sends emails once every few weeks to see if you have found a job yet. If you tell them you have and tell them for who then they list you on their site and take credit for the placement. I have been contacted several times by my "recruiter" but not once have they told me they had a possible interview, they only ask if I have had any luck! One reason the students who have been listed but received no help from Elite will not speak out against them due to fear of being Blackballed within the medical sales industry by people from Elite/MSC. I could write many more facts about them and will if anyone requests additional info.
 




Re: MSC quickly buries with spam this particular review from one of their victims.

Medical Sales College doesn't seem to like this review by one of their victims... perhaps because they feel it's accurate. In fact, they very quickly respond to it by burying it under tons of spam. Check it out:


I can tell you from personal experience and after paying a total of almost $10,000 to attend their MSC that they are taking money from people who they recruit and after they go through their program and have paid their $6500 in tuition they are told on the day they "Graduate" with worthless certificate not to call the recruiting offices every week because they are working on getting every graduate an interview. I was recruited after finding a job listing on careerbuilder.com. I sent my resume to the email for the job listing and was contacted by EliteMed recruiting and was told due to my background that I would get a job very quickly and would probably have job offers before I finished their MSC program. The program is 8 weeks with 4 weeks being at home and the other 4 is at their office in Colorado. So, I was required to pay $3250.00 and they would send me a program binder to start the program and I had to pay the rest before I arrived in Colorado for the last 4 weeks. I paid $1800 for the room I stayed in while in Colorado and about $800 for food and drink while in Colorado. My flight was $300 for round trip. So I spent $9400.00 total on the program. The same guy owns both the MSC and Elite Med recruiting. However, the only thing I can say positive about the experience is the 4 weeks in Colorado I was taught by two guys who were exceptional in being able to teach and for being very knowledgeable. This however was not worth the alomost $10,000 I spent. I have not had ONE interview set up by Elite MEd. I have had two interviews that I got through LinkedIN and when asking the guys who interviewed me if they had talked to Elite Med or if they had seen my profile on their website etc, they said my interview had nothing to do with Elite Med and the only positive response I received from both interviews about the entire MSC experience was they were impressed that I spent almost $10,000.00 toward getting into medical sales. I am still waiting to hear from them this was just a little while ago that I had the interviews. Also, the primary thing that bothered me to begin with is that while I was in Colorado I found out that the recruiters that I dealt with initially worked in total separate offices and separate floor from the recruiters I dealt with as I graduated from their program. I found out that the recruiters who post all these job opportunities, or at least the ones who were recruiting me to begin with are strictly recruiting for new students to go to MSC. I saw this with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. On a break during a class while in Colorado I wondered into the hallway next to the class room and there were offices on each side of the hallway. The doors were open and within a 15 minute break I heard 3 different recruiters make at least 3-4 phone calls where they had brief conversations with people telling them they had great backgrounds but needed to attend the MSC program so they would have the experience they needed. I was also told during my initial recruiting that they MSC had hiring managers from several companies that routinely visit the school for recruiting new prospects. Well, in my 4 weeks we had one guy come in and talk to us for a few minutes and since nobody had heard the name of his "company" before and asked him about the "company" we learned he was a local distributer and only hired people to work strictly commission. I can also attest that I personally know that some of the people they have listed on their site as successful placements were in my class who I still keep contact with who found their jobs with no help from Elite Med and didn't like when they learned that Elite listed them as to take credit. The way they keep up with you is they assign you a "recruiter" for your area that is sitting in an office in Colorado and sends emails once every few weeks to see if you have found a job yet. If you tell them you have and tell them for who then they list you on their site and take credit for the placement. I have been contacted several times by my "recruiter" but not once have they told me they had a possible interview, they only ask if I have had any luck! One reason the students who have been listed but received no help from Elite will not speak out against them due to fear of being Blackballed within the medical sales industry by people from Elite/MSC. I could write many more facts about them and will if anyone requests additional info.

You hit the nail right on the head. Elite Med and Medical Sales College are in the same building on the same floor. They are both owned by Jim Rogers even though they claim Scott Binder is the owner of Elite Med. Their business model has been to aggressively cold call on candidates who are desperate to break into medical sales. They tell them they will have no shot unless they consider the medical sales college. I don't disagree that the college does provide good training. I am not sure if the cost of training is really worth it. If you have strong B2B sales with documented achievements you will be considered for many entry level sales opportunities. EliteMed claims zero fee for placing candidates who have graduated from the college. That is great for the hiring manager however, it does not pay the bills for Elite Med. The medical sales college does with it's enrollments. It is a shell game that Jim plays. If you go to the elite med web site, you can see Scott Binder's name as well as his entire family who are recruiters. What kind of experience in recruiting does his wife and daughter really have?? This is Jim's way of keeping costs low. The thing about the Medical Sales College is they will take anyone who has the cash. You could be a waitress selling at hooters and they will take you into the program. I can tell you a hiring manager would be foolish to hire someone with that background to join his team to now be selling complicated instrumentation. He would prefer someone with several years selling copiers for example. Yes they train you and what to do in a hospital but it does not replace having tangible sales experience. I would caution anyone attending this program because you will end up getting placed as a 100% commissioned sales rep with no benefits. You will not have any relationships in the business and you will struggle. If you don't produce, you will starve or get fired.
 




Why would a rep with GREAT relationships be looking for a job? If you really had great relationships you would also have a GREAT non-compete! Furthermore you should have GREAT business therefore not needing a job. What you interview is a bunch of underperforming sales people that TELL you that they have GREAT relationships. Ask any hiring manager how many times they have hired an existing representative with relationships and how often they really moved business? You will find that they answer is almost never! Yet, they sucker you out of high guarantees to move the relationships you really don’t have! Great medical sales reps are not looking for jobs. In fact, if they were, they would never need to interview they would network with someone they already know. If you are really good, trust me other companies know who you are! Unlike pharm, medical sales reps are not being laid off!

I would rather take my shot at a new rep with no bad habits. MSC trained, even better!

I can tell you why a great rep with great relationships would be looking for a job. Perhaps his company felt he was making too much money and they cut his territory down. Or perhaps his company changed the comp plan and reduced his commission so he has to sell twice as much to make what he made last year. Or perhaps the VP of Sales hired one of his douche bag friends as a manger that this rep now has to report to. The manger has no experience in the industry of the product they sell but he now has all of the answers. You understand this Jim. You have done these kind of things for years so you truly should understand why a great rep is looking to leave. Regarding non competes, great reps are savvy enough to not sign these anymore. They are worthless in many states and a rep can sue a company if they get fired for not signing one. Oh and by the way, medical device companies ARE laying off people due to the Obama tax hitting companies in 2013. Stryker and medtronic cut over 1000 jobs in 2012 in preparation for this tax. Smith & Nephew 700+ jobs, Abbott 700+, Covidien 595, Zimmer 450, St Jude, 300+.
 




A Typical MSC Victim

This is just my opinion, but below is a Linkedin profile of a typical Medical Sales College victim-- someone who is not overly bright and probably not medical sales material. I removed the person's name for privacy reasons.

A device manufacturer's hiring manager will more than likely interpret the person's profile this way:

1) Graduated from a no-name college after 5 years. (4 years must have been too rigorous.)

2) After obtaining a college degree, the person was still only able to secure a server position at a Thai Restaurant.

3) The person obviously wanted a career, so answered a "job ad" from EliteMed recruiting. The person probably thought there was an actual open position in the area-- after all, that's what the "job ad" implied.

4) EliteMed then convinced this person that paying MSC could enhance this person's chances of breaking into medical sales.

5) After obtaining a Medical Sales College certificate, this person still works at the same Thai restaurant... only now, with $10,000 more in credit card bills.

In my opinion, if you have "MSC" on your resume, it suggests that you are not savvy enough to avoid an education scam. It says you're a sucker.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Current
Server at Basil Thai Cuisine
Past
Student at Medical Sales College
Cocktail Server at Vida Mexican Kitchen y Cantina
Server at Outback Steakhouse
see all
Education
Medical Sales College
James Madison University
Connections
90 connections


Actively seeking a medical device sales position within an organization that provides challenging assignments, opportunity for career growth in a professional and dynamic environment.

Willing to relocate for the right opportunity.

Energetic, hardworking, and goal oriented outside sales professional with solid qualifications in customer relations and sales strategy execution. Proven ability to reach target market, develop new business, and increase sales with new and established clientele. Persuasive communicator with strong deal closing abilities; well organized; and excellent time management skills.

Server
Basil Thai Cuisine
June 2011 – Present (1 year 7 months) Charlotte, North Carolina

• Part of an intimate team ,hand selected by the owner to uphold the set standards of service and to build and maintain relationships with the patrons
Student
Medical Sales College
Privately Held; 11-50 employees; Medical Devices industry
May 2012 – July 2012 (3 months) Charlotte, North Carolina Area

• Excelled in a completive environment being awarded Valedictorian for demonstrating exceptional dedication and hard work
• Developed a strong foundation of knowledge related to anatomy, physiology, pathology, biomechanics, and medical terminology to effectively communicate with surgeon customers.
• Reviewed Operating Room protocol and the sterile field to effectively navigate the hospital environment.
• Acquired a comprehensive understanding of the products and procedures involved in orthopedic medicine including: total joint reconstruction, fracture management, internal and external fixation devices, surgical releases, sports medicine products, and orthobiologic products.
• Participated in 30+ hours of role-playing to develop competency in building rapport and converting sales.
• Identified the target market for orthopedic surgeons in the Charlotte, NC area; Prepared more than 25 surgeonprofiles and developed an actionable business plan for territory development
Cocktail Server
Vida Mexican Kitchen y Cantina
September 2009 – May 2010 (9 months) Charlotte, North Carolina Area

•Worked in multiple facets of restaurant, upholding service standards, customer satisfaction and restaurant promotion while continually producing record sales
•Selected as part of the training and employee development team for future employees and new store openings
•Chosen to assist in the development of a training program for new employees and new store openings
•Actively involved in the organizing and execution of promotional events with the Checkers; onsite advertising, pregame/post game parties hosted at the store, and fundraising events
Server
Outback Steakhouse
Public Company; 10,001+ employees; Restaurants industry
February 2006 – May 2010 (4 years 4 months)

•Personally chosen by the General Manager/Store Partner to travel to help train and open a brand new Outback Steakhouse
•Continued to develop sales skills, winning a majority of in-store and regional personal sale's goal competitions
•Selected to represent Outback Steakhouse with onsite catering for promotional and charitable events
•Key member involved in the transition of store owners and new system structure by effectively adapting to the new management team and styles, eagerly learning the new computer systems and leading by example to motivate others to embrace the opportunity
Branch Manager
College Works Painting
Privately Held; 1001-5000 employees; Construction industry
August 2005 – August 2006 (1 year 1 month) Frederick, MD

•Actively sought out business in target areas and gaining experience in the art of successful cold calling, identifying potential customer's needs, conducting estimates, building relationships with potential client and closing the sales
•Capitalizing on valuable sales skills in combination with strong work ethics and communication abilities to successfully sell and produce over 100K in revenue while maintaining excellent GPA as a fulltime student
•Hands on experience with customer relations, employee relations, advanced problem solving, and effective communication practices

Medical Sales College
Academy Program, Orthopedic Sales
2012 – 2012

James Madison University
Bachelor of Science (B.S.), Kinesiology
2005 – 2010
 




Here is a good question for you... If they take anyone, people with little too no experience yet have 500+ graduates selling in the hardest industry, are you really saying that they are amazing?

People in your mind that have no chance but still make it in?

A college with not a single complaint? Only a single blogger on CP!

Sounds like you are jealous. It's the same repetitive message for more than two years. No names... Wonder why?
 




The Linkedin person above graduated from MSC back in July 2012-- almost 6 months ago!!! If he or she doesn't soon find a medical sales job using MSC's training, then wouldn't all the knowledge learned from MSC simply be forgotten?

The person doesn't even list outside sales experience, yet MSC still "accepted" him or her into their expensive program. MSC must have known that for medical sales, one needs sales experience beyond up-selling dinner specials and dessert.

Also, how useful could the July 2012 MSC degree possibly be if their "graduate" first lands a copier sales job in order to gain sales experience before again pursuing a medical sales job in 2015? Not very.

Point is, MSC accepts anyone who can pay tuition, including people who have never done inside or outside sales. EliteMed sells their MSC program to desperate jobseekers.

Oh, and MSC probably blames its victims for not finding medical sales positions. Again, all I have ever written about EliteMed and MSC are just my 1st Amendment protected opinions.
 




No MSC

If the Linkedin person above who graduated from MSC way back in July 2012 doesn't find a job soon, wouldn't all that MSC training be forgotten? Bye-bye $10,000.

EliteMed probably told this restaurant worker that device companies offer positions to people still attending MSC, yet our victim here is still a server in the same Thai restaurant 6 months after graduating from MSC.

MSC should have known to reject this applicant who has no real sales experience beyond up-selling dinner specials and dessert.
 




Actual MSC Valedictorian

Restaurant--> 5 year Kinesiology degree-->Restaurant-->MSC Valedictorian--> Restaurant.

They should never have let this unqualified person in. Even though this person became MSC's valedictorian, all he or she can still get is restaurant work.

Go MSC!!! LOL.
 




Wow, the Linkedin profile above actually says MSC Valedictorian.

It shows you how little weight MSC has, since even their top grad can't find a job without first getting real sales experience.
 




I agree with most of you that this Medical College is a joke, and will not help people in the long run.

Now, this kid is in his mid to late 20s, and has no good sales experience. So, that is his problem mostly. Sure, the degree might help him down the line if he gets a spot, because he will have exposure to the environment he is selling in.

Another thing that makes me laugh is that this college is 10k, which is not a lot of money, so for those of you so bent out of shape about losing 10k, relax. Colleges today go for 30-60k, and are a worse value by a long shot.

Best bet for people is to get a college degree as cheap as possible (community college and four year state school cheap), and then get some copier or payroll or food sales experience and then learn how to sell and manage a territory. With good networking and a bit of polish, you can find your way to a great position in whatever you want to do afterwards or just stay where you are and grow your business.

Wish I had this advice when I was younger.
 




An interesting observation!

After reading your sob story for this “individual” whom should have “never been accepted”, I found an interesting fact!

Like you, I too used LinkedIn as a verifiable source to substantiate your claim. In the advanced search, I typed in the Medical Sales College under school and server as a keyword. 11 results were found. ALL 11 attended the Medical Sales College. Of the 11 results, 10 have graduated and 1 has not. Of the 10, 7 are employed in medical sales. That is a 70% placement rate for those with a server background! That is assuming none of the other 3 find a job in medical sales.

Of the 7 that are placed, 5 are placed with top device companies!

Only 4 of the 10 have server as the most recent job before attending the Medical Sales College. Of that 4, 3 or 75% are PLACED! Those “3” are placed with Biomet, Arthrex and Depuy all very reputable top manufactures.

That leaves “1” unplaced graduate which is the person in your latest of “hundreds” of postings. Nobody can blame you for having an agenda; it is obvious you have something to gain from attempting to tarnish the investment these individuals have made towards a future! Who knows…are you a competitor? It is weird that you would post more than 45 postings with your name on the RipOff Report and countless others here. You have been posting for more than one-year although you indicate that you never attended the college.

Hmmmm……..
 




MSC Valedictorian Still Working at a Thai Restaurant

Becker Sams, who works for Medical Sales College, wrote the entry above around the same time he posted the same basic information on MSC's Ripoff Report. What Becker failed to mention is that the Linkedin Thai restaurant server mentioned actually graduated from MSC around 6 months ago.

If their top student can't find a medical sales position, how effective could their program be?

Go MSC!!! LOL!!!
 




MSC Valedictorian Still Working at a Thai Restaurant

Becker Sams forgot to mention that the Thai restaurant server mentioned above, who graduated from MSC 6 months ago, is actually one of their valedictorians.

The victim did all he or she was instructed by MSC to do... and yet no medical sales position.

GO MSC!!! LOL!!!
 




What no one seems to understand is that many if not most all of these folks would have gotten hired (for their personality, professionalism and enthusiasm etc) by these employers without the MSC experience and then been trained by those companies (Stryker, Smith & Nephew and so on) FOR FREE.

As a corporate recruiter for one of the largest orthopedic companies worldwide, I can tell you that when we receive resumes of potential candidates, the MSC certificate/experience is of little interest to us. We have a very thorough corporate training program.
 




What no one seems to understand is that many if not most all of these folks would have gotten hired (for their personality, professionalism and enthusiasm etc) by these employers without the MSC experience and then been trained by those companies (Stryker, Smith & Nephew and so on) FOR FREE.

As a corporate recruiter for one of the largest orthopedic companies worldwide, I can tell you that when we receive resumes of potential candidates, the MSC certificate/experience is of little interest to us. We have a very thorough corporate training program.


You are a corporate recruiter for a "large" company that just happens to be hanging out on CafePhrama durning the middle of the day??

Sure you are....lol!!

Nice try!
 








So it has all gone very quiet recently. What happened to Steve? This has to be one of the most entertaining threads on this board. Looks like Shannon did leave MSC. Apparently she is a sales person is the realty business.

This school is just another spin on the old buy my book on 'how to get into pharma sales' scam. While no one would dispute the information presented it will not help you break into anything. If you landed a job after going to MSC or after buying one of these silly books (which contain no more information than you can find out for free online) then you probably would have anyway. You probably already possessed the necessary skills to interview well you just needed some polish. If your looking for polish I would suggest you can get that for a lot less than $10,000. In fact you can get it and get paid for it! It's called a job in sales at places like ADP etc.

When you find a job posting that says 'graduates of MSC' preferred or required - please let me know. What you will find is B2B sales preferences and 4 year degree required. That is your way in together with networking within the industry. Research medical companies online and read about what is impacting the industry.

Large corporations have their own extensive training programs because we must demonstrate that each rep has achieved a basic level of understanding of the products they are promoting. We would certainly not entrust that to any 'medical sales school.' This school is only good for the sales side but as I said you can get that from a paying job.

Just my 2 cents.

Written by a hiring manager for the medical industry....
 




So it has all gone very quiet recently. What happened to Steve? This has to be one of the most entertaining threads on this board. Looks like Shannon did leave MSC. Apparently she is a sales person is the realty business.

This school is just another spin on the old buy my book on 'how to get into pharma sales' scam. While no one would dispute the information presented it will not help you break into anything. If you landed a job after going to MSC or after buying one of these silly books (which contain no more information than you can find out for free online) then you probably would have anyway. You probably already possessed the necessary skills to interview well you just needed some polish. If your looking for polish I would suggest you can get that for a lot less than $10,000. In fact you can get it and get paid for it! It's called a job in sales at places like ADP etc.

When you find a job posting that says 'graduates of MSC' preferred or required - please let me know. What you will find is B2B sales preferences and 4 year degree required. That is your way in together with networking within the industry. Research medical companies online and read about what is impacting the industry.

Large corporations have their own extensive training programs because we must demonstrate that each rep has achieved a basic level of understanding of the products they are promoting. We would certainly not entrust that to any 'medical sales school.' This school is only good for the sales side but as I said you can get that from a paying job.

Just my 2 cents.

Written by a hiring manager for the medical industry....

agreed. unnecessary training and expense to the candidate