As a surgical equipment rep, we are indeed required to learn about our role, features, benefits and clinical applications. We understand that our product may not be the best for the particular clinical situation for a given patient. We also know how little we really know when compared to surgeons who have spent many many years in school vs a few weeks of training. Everyone, including surgeons, want to make money. This petty fighting and lack of professionalism is ruining the ability for all of us to continue to do so w/o government intervention. Raise the bar... learn about the best product for the patient in a given situation and get back to work.
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EBI v. Exogen
- Thread starter Anonymous
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I agree!
If this the way DME reps think- no wonder they're considered widget hustlers. Does anyone have a thought to mess that's being made? Drs will not trust any rep anymore with all this catfighting!
If this the way DME reps think- no wonder they're considered widget hustlers. Does anyone have a thought to mess that's being made? Drs will not trust any rep anymore with all this catfighting!
Dissapointed potential customer
So I am googling away trying to find some information about bone-growth stimulators after having my doctor tell me that one may work. It has been six months now since I fractured my 5th metatarsal and while I am gimping, it is still not totally healed. All I know is that the sales rep for whatever stimulator the doctor recommended (he never told me what "brand" it was) seemed rather eager for me to get in there and close the deal. I have insurance, but my share would still come to over 700 dollars. 300 being my yearly deductible (which I know there is nothing I can do about) plus 15% out of pocket for the rest of it. When I balked, he said that if I had a low income level I may "qualify" to have that waived. Well, it seems to me that if he can waive it for somebody making 40 grand a year, he can waive it for anybody. Anyways, the point is, information for these gadgets is tough to dig up. Tough enough that it seems difficult by design to get any impartial facts.
So imagine my luck stumbling into this little board. What a disgusting display. If anything will scare people into advocating for socialized medicine, it is this kind of blatant greed and money grubbing. I had the misfortune of working in the car business many years ago and the parallels here are disconcerting. It seems people who pedal medical devices are indeed cut from the same cloth as the checkered jacket and white shoe guys. Same old "I sold more that you, nyaa nyaa nyaa! Look at all the money I'm making! Look at my shiny car! Look at ME!" It is obvious that care for the patient is not a motivation, not even a small one. Bone up on your company propoganda and then hit the bricks and start schmoozing doctors. Kiss asses for a living. And take money from patients and insurance companies, thus driving up the costs for all of us so you can brag about what kind of car you drive. How does it feel to contribute nothing of value for society, just take, take, take? Lest you believe your own bullshit about creating demand, or "building value" (one of my favorite sales euphamisms), do you think any less cars would be sold without all of the scumbags on car-lots trying to sell them to us? Nope, we'd all still be driving something. I have a feeling the same applies for bone-growth stimulators, only without all of you people the doctors might actually have to think about what is best for the patient.
It looks like if I want to find out what bone-growth stimulator is the best one, I need to see several different doctors, then wallow through some peer reviewed studies. Or I can just try and negotiate the best deal I can and hope like hell that I am not getting ripped off. Am I wrong? What would you do if you were in my (kind of painful because my foot is still broken) shoes?
So I am googling away trying to find some information about bone-growth stimulators after having my doctor tell me that one may work. It has been six months now since I fractured my 5th metatarsal and while I am gimping, it is still not totally healed. All I know is that the sales rep for whatever stimulator the doctor recommended (he never told me what "brand" it was) seemed rather eager for me to get in there and close the deal. I have insurance, but my share would still come to over 700 dollars. 300 being my yearly deductible (which I know there is nothing I can do about) plus 15% out of pocket for the rest of it. When I balked, he said that if I had a low income level I may "qualify" to have that waived. Well, it seems to me that if he can waive it for somebody making 40 grand a year, he can waive it for anybody. Anyways, the point is, information for these gadgets is tough to dig up. Tough enough that it seems difficult by design to get any impartial facts.
So imagine my luck stumbling into this little board. What a disgusting display. If anything will scare people into advocating for socialized medicine, it is this kind of blatant greed and money grubbing. I had the misfortune of working in the car business many years ago and the parallels here are disconcerting. It seems people who pedal medical devices are indeed cut from the same cloth as the checkered jacket and white shoe guys. Same old "I sold more that you, nyaa nyaa nyaa! Look at all the money I'm making! Look at my shiny car! Look at ME!" It is obvious that care for the patient is not a motivation, not even a small one. Bone up on your company propoganda and then hit the bricks and start schmoozing doctors. Kiss asses for a living. And take money from patients and insurance companies, thus driving up the costs for all of us so you can brag about what kind of car you drive. How does it feel to contribute nothing of value for society, just take, take, take? Lest you believe your own bullshit about creating demand, or "building value" (one of my favorite sales euphamisms), do you think any less cars would be sold without all of the scumbags on car-lots trying to sell them to us? Nope, we'd all still be driving something. I have a feeling the same applies for bone-growth stimulators, only without all of you people the doctors might actually have to think about what is best for the patient.
It looks like if I want to find out what bone-growth stimulator is the best one, I need to see several different doctors, then wallow through some peer reviewed studies. Or I can just try and negotiate the best deal I can and hope like hell that I am not getting ripped off. Am I wrong? What would you do if you were in my (kind of painful because my foot is still broken) shoes?
Re: Dissapointed potential customer
You can go on E bay and buy barely used ones for $100
You can go on E bay and buy barely used ones for $100
I am a device rep that sells Exogen. I have been working with the product for nine years. I have been offered jobs with Boston Scientific and other companies but have chosen to stay where I am for a few reasons.
First, this product is truly an excellent product with reproducible data. I have worked for other medical companies in the past that I left because I couldn't be convinced of their data. I believe in what I do. I am as thorough with my patients as I can be and I personally track their success with follow up calls and when I can, their subsequent physician visits. I know that my patients heal and I know that sometimes their are miracles and sometimes it's luck and it doesn't work for everyone.
I am deeply saddened and embarrassed for my profession by reading these comments. I was actually looking for studies when I found this thread. These few reps do not reflect the industry as a whole. I have stayed here because I know the data. I also know the people I get the honor of working with are at their wits end with their fracture healing. Their is a substantial loss of someone's quality of life when they suffer an injury. I had a patient who worked for a union, got hurt outside of work and couldn't return until he was healed. He had four months of unpaid leave when the doctor ordered Exogen. He kept asking me why he didn't get it sooner knowing we can speed up healing by 38%. I think of this guy all the time because I'm terrible at selling but believe their are patients who need this. He healed within two months.
I think about them and know in the back on my mind, having done my own research, that there are 560 studies done on Exogen, 11 of them are Level I scientific evidence, and candidly, some are great, well powered, blinded studies and others don't show much difference. Nothing else on the market has this kind of evidence, however. DJ Ortho/CMF doesn't seem to have much for published studies, just white papers and a patient registry and EBI's best success rate according to the FDA is 60% but compliance @ 10 hours would be tricky. The FDA has all the bone stimulators published success rates, to end the argument.
To the point about billing. The list price of the product is $4500 but the contracted rate with the insurance plans are lower. I try to be as clear as possible on what to expect.
Most everything in life comes down to little things like habit, relationships, ease of use. Everything is bought and sold and because of that, all data should be challenged, with the metal in your knee or the gauze on your arm. I love what I do, I am proud of the way I do my job and at this point in my career, I could probably go anywhere but I like where I am and I didn't need a short skirt to get me started. We are not all the same.
First, this product is truly an excellent product with reproducible data. I have worked for other medical companies in the past that I left because I couldn't be convinced of their data. I believe in what I do. I am as thorough with my patients as I can be and I personally track their success with follow up calls and when I can, their subsequent physician visits. I know that my patients heal and I know that sometimes their are miracles and sometimes it's luck and it doesn't work for everyone.
I am deeply saddened and embarrassed for my profession by reading these comments. I was actually looking for studies when I found this thread. These few reps do not reflect the industry as a whole. I have stayed here because I know the data. I also know the people I get the honor of working with are at their wits end with their fracture healing. Their is a substantial loss of someone's quality of life when they suffer an injury. I had a patient who worked for a union, got hurt outside of work and couldn't return until he was healed. He had four months of unpaid leave when the doctor ordered Exogen. He kept asking me why he didn't get it sooner knowing we can speed up healing by 38%. I think of this guy all the time because I'm terrible at selling but believe their are patients who need this. He healed within two months.
I think about them and know in the back on my mind, having done my own research, that there are 560 studies done on Exogen, 11 of them are Level I scientific evidence, and candidly, some are great, well powered, blinded studies and others don't show much difference. Nothing else on the market has this kind of evidence, however. DJ Ortho/CMF doesn't seem to have much for published studies, just white papers and a patient registry and EBI's best success rate according to the FDA is 60% but compliance @ 10 hours would be tricky. The FDA has all the bone stimulators published success rates, to end the argument.
To the point about billing. The list price of the product is $4500 but the contracted rate with the insurance plans are lower. I try to be as clear as possible on what to expect.
Most everything in life comes down to little things like habit, relationships, ease of use. Everything is bought and sold and because of that, all data should be challenged, with the metal in your knee or the gauze on your arm. I love what I do, I am proud of the way I do my job and at this point in my career, I could probably go anywhere but I like where I am and I didn't need a short skirt to get me started. We are not all the same.
EBI/Biomet stims have been around for decades. Interesting opinion and thoughts though. Do you have any insight to the technology differences between exogen and ebi/biomet units? Why is exogen that much better? Don't most fresh fractures heal anyway? Is that why exogen healing rates are so high? Is exogen contracted with as many companies as EBI? Why aren't they? thanks for the insight.
Very few surgeons actually use Exogen for fresh fractures unless it is workman's comp, or the patients states they don't want surgery. That is my experience, anyway. Most surgeons want to "fix" a fracture themselves because, face it, it's how they pay their bills and make their money. However, I have personally seen many documented cases where Exogen has worked and spared patients an open surgical reduction.
Most of the use for Exogen is non-unions. Exogen's 86 percent heal rate is based on overall bone healing from non-unions.
Of course most fractures heal on their own but some take more time than others which is a pain to the patient. Exogen is the only bone healing device that has the data to accelerate the healing of fresh fractures by 38 percent. There are a good number of level one studies to prove.
Every rep I know who sells Exogen has a true passion for the product and how it helps people in their fracture healing process. The cost savings and economic values to the healthcare system when reducing a second surgery or even a first are impressive.
The 4,500 dollars that one mentioned is the list price. Insurance companies are contracted for a much lower rate and all stimulators are pretty much equal in price and are much lower than open surgery.
Exogen is now the market leader in bone stimulation. It has a unique mechanism of action and is recognized as being advanced technology. Another benefit is that it only takes 20 minutes via ultrasound to initiate a biological response to the cells responsible for natural fracture repair. The cells are stimulated after wear time, for 20 to 24 hours. This reduction in wear time verses the old electrical technology enhances patient compliance which is key.
Do your research, ask around and probe the internet. Exogen will most likely come up as the stimulator of choice. However, many surgeons respond to the rep they are most comfortable with. As a patient it should be about the device and service and not the rep.
However, much of this business, is a personality and food contest. It's unfortunate.
Most of the use for Exogen is non-unions. Exogen's 86 percent heal rate is based on overall bone healing from non-unions.
Of course most fractures heal on their own but some take more time than others which is a pain to the patient. Exogen is the only bone healing device that has the data to accelerate the healing of fresh fractures by 38 percent. There are a good number of level one studies to prove.
Every rep I know who sells Exogen has a true passion for the product and how it helps people in their fracture healing process. The cost savings and economic values to the healthcare system when reducing a second surgery or even a first are impressive.
The 4,500 dollars that one mentioned is the list price. Insurance companies are contracted for a much lower rate and all stimulators are pretty much equal in price and are much lower than open surgery.
Exogen is now the market leader in bone stimulation. It has a unique mechanism of action and is recognized as being advanced technology. Another benefit is that it only takes 20 minutes via ultrasound to initiate a biological response to the cells responsible for natural fracture repair. The cells are stimulated after wear time, for 20 to 24 hours. This reduction in wear time verses the old electrical technology enhances patient compliance which is key.
Do your research, ask around and probe the internet. Exogen will most likely come up as the stimulator of choice. However, many surgeons respond to the rep they are most comfortable with. As a patient it should be about the device and service and not the rep.
However, much of this business, is a personality and food contest. It's unfortunate.
I used to sell stims, they all don't work, its a C.Y.A. for the docs so they can say that they tried everything for the patient. Cant believe you all are actually arguing over this, citing studies....docs dont care about studies, they want a good relationship and a reliable rep
No facts. It's like saying that surgery isn't effective because it isn't 100 percent effective.
I'll counter you by making my own claim that the earth is flat. Have a nice day moron.
If they work as advertised in 90 days, why are they not billed the rental code, saving patients money.
Doubt every word you say. Look on your own long bone web site. Overall long bone efficacy doesn't come CLOSE to Exogen.
Yeah and keep selling those practices your Buy and Bill program and watch it all come crumbling down. The docs won't like you very much, then.
Can't tell you how many times I've been called to help on a DJ ortho failure. Worse stim on the market.
Exogen has Level One data supporting this as well. With an efficacy rate far greater than CMF.
The FDA prohibits S&N from 'renting' out the device as it contacts the patient's skin and could cause the spread of infectious disease if passed from one patient to the other. However, the unit is theirs to keep, so should they fracture another bone...they could use that unit for that fracture. As long as the battery works....good investment
The FDA prohibits S&N from 'renting' out the device as it contacts the patient's skin and could cause the spread of infectious disease if passed from one patient to the other. However, the unit is theirs to keep, so should they fracture another bone...they could use that unit for that fracture. As long as the battery works....good investment
Didn't realize the FDA has rules on billing methods, as it was my understanding the rules are made by whom you are billing. Aren't there cleaning agents available which are used to clean other medical devices utilized by HME dealers? Would it not be more economical for the patient, if given a choice, to rent the device, especially if only used a short period of time? Doesn't appear to be much of an "investment."
Are you done drinking the Orthofix cool-aid? The EBI stim is effective when worn anywhere btwn 3-10 hours a day with maximum effectiveness at 10hours per day. Its the same PEMF signal that the Physio-stim has only it doesn't weight 4lbs like the physiostim. Your indicated for 3 hours because there was no sense to go after 10hrs per day because EBI already has that.
If your stim is so effective what is your average time to heal at 3 hrs per day? I bet you have to look that one up, right? I bet its alot more then our 10hour per day average.
Caught my eye. Why would you be selling these to the hospitals when this is a clinic based product? And I guess you are doing that so you can get non-indicated acute fractures covered, right? Adding 3,500 dollars to the already high cost of global? How convenient for you. Another slick trick by a bone stimulator rep. You people take the cake. Oh? Can't get Medicare or other payers to cover, so you just add to the global cost and increase healthcare costs when the majority of patients will heal on their own.