EBI v. Exogen

Quote
Anonymous said:
Finally, a rented product is available. Soon to be among all providers, the requirement to offer the patient a rental. It's about time.[/

Looks like somebody has access to used exogen units and is replacing the battery. Perhaps a disgruntled exogen assembler from Memphis who knows how to refurbish! Kudos to that person in assisting to control healthcare costs. Boo to the Lobbyists who pay off Congress so that medicare can't negotiate with vendors
Click to expand...
 






Anonymous said:
Anonymous said:
Finally, a rented product is available. Soon to be among all providers, the requirement to offer the patient a rental. It's about time.[/

Looks like somebody has access to used exogen units and is replacing the battery. Perhaps a disgruntled exogen assembler from Memphis who knows how to refurbish! Kudos to that person in assisting to control healthcare costs. Boo to the Lobbyists who pay off Congress so that medicare can't negotiate with vendors
Click to expand...

Per the IP address, they are out of the Minneapolis/ St Paul area. Most likely someone buying units on ebay and then renting them out. Great idea ( sort of wish I had thought of it) but dispensing prescription medical devices without a license seems like trouble no matter what particular bone stim we are talking about. Is it legal?
Click to expand...
 






Anonymous said:
Anonymous said:
Per the IP address, they are out of the Minneapolis/ St Paul area. Most likely someone buying units on ebay and then renting them out. Great idea ( sort of wish I had thought of it) but dispensing prescription medical devices without a license seems like trouble no matter what particular bone stim we are talking about. Is it legal?
Click to expand...
Any accredited HME dealer can bill for this product. The unit it no different than a Tens unit. Exogen is trademark so must be Smith and Nephew dealer. Product is not a drug, and this rental site goes against manufacturers single patient use mandate. Maybe this mandate was so they could collect huge profits rather than renting product. Why is this different from a Tens unit when it comes to billing as a rental? Seems to me this dealer is the first one to actually bill properly. Patients would save money too.
Click to expand...
 






Anonymous said:
Anonymous said:
Any accredited HME dealer can bill for this product. The unit it no different than a Tens unit. Seems to me this dealer is the first one to actually bill properly. Patients would save money too.
Click to expand...

JCAHO accreditation is only necessary if the HME/DME provider is billing Medicare or Medicaid. This "dealer" does not bill insurance, but is instead a cash and carry business:

"At this time we do not bill insurance companies." http://www.exogenrental.com/rental-rates/

The patient can provide a copy of the rental invoice to his/her insurer, and the insured patient should get reimbursed the maximum allowable rental charge from his/her insurer, if "medically necessary," as defined. See, e.g. www.anthem.com/medicalpolicies/policies/mp_pw_a050287.htm

The patient should bill it to his/her insurer as E0760RR

There are a wealth of conditions for which the Exogen is considered to be medically necessary: www.exogen.com/elements/.../exogen-coding-and-billing-guide.pdf

Yes, www.exogenrental.com should legally maintain a copy of the prescription from the patient's doctor, being as they are renting or selling a legend device.

Any/all bone stim units, including Exogen, are different than TENS, as TENS have no therapeutic benefit --- just pain relief --- but the rental reporting and billing requirements are similar.

Sanitizing them is easy enough. I wonder how difficult it is to replace the battery, as I may suggest to my orthopedists and podiatrists that they start purchasing used units for serial rentals, but only to PPO insured patients.

I would rather see the physician make ongoing profits on rentals, instead of S&N making grossly inappropriate profits on the purchase only option as a single use device (SUD).
Click to expand...
 






No reason they should not be rented. Is there anything wrong with someone wanting to recover as quickly as possible, rather than wait months for an option to speed healing.
Billing insurance 1000's of dollars , is that really a preferable option to an invidual paying for one out of their own pocket at about the same price as the likely insurance deductible?
This saves all insurance customers money. Fantastic idea.
 






I'm sorry for bumping this thread BEFORE I READ IT but I promise to read it all.

Yes, I realize it's an old thread but maybe I can get a couple of questions answered hopefully without getting flamed so I don't have to read all this drama.


I read a little and I've seen some people call it a piece of junk.

Anyway..................

HERE IT GOES:
My mother got an Exogen Bioventus because a hospitals staff member must have accidentally broken my mothers leg. She was prescribed prednisone for a long time in the 80's. Anyway she died after 1 use of this device. One 20 minute use.

Could a small sports medicine or Osteo bone clinic benefit from this device ?
It might be inferior but wouldn't it be worth at least 700 brand new ?
Still has plastic on lens........manuals....in box etc. etc.

And.............................I guess its legal to sell right ?


Thank you in advance for sharing any experienced wisdom !
Thank you for not making me read this entire thread.
There seemed to be lots of emo
 












Okay I couldn't make it through the first page.


PLEASE HELP A POOR PRIVATE CITIZEN WITH ONLY A PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION:
The Bi-polarity feud on these pages really doesn't tell me anything except
that 2 different sides are cursing each others products.



Let me sum it up.

Due to consequences beyond human control : I have ended up with an EXOGEN BIOVENTUS machine and strap device that only has 20 minutes usage and was acquired 2 months ago.

Is it legal to sell and how much is it worth ?


PLEASE
 






These devices are prescribed with a doctors ex for a reason. That being said, you cannot legally sell it however, for the pt who only used it for one day it should have been returned and the insurance or whoever paid for it reimbursed. EBI has always had a 30 day policy., meaning if for any reason the pt does not want or cannot use the unit it must be credited back to whoever paid for it. Probably too late for you to return but you can do whatever you want with it. I see them on eBay and other sites all the time. It is def buyer beware.
 












That's a contradiction but since I have seen them on EBAY I figured it would be legal.

The patient had some major problems and with everything going on after her death I didn't even think about the unit. I was a little overwhelmed at the time. I guess if the rep. who came by and sold this at a BON SECOURS HOSPITAL would have checked up on her sale it could have happened. (since she died about 4 days after leaving hospital)

I would like to see it be used instead of it just becoming worthless trash.

I know after all the medical bills we have endured during the 38 years of her major case of M.S. we needed to reverse mortgage our house which is going to run out soon too.

I need the money.

I tried to read another thread on this website about this machine and it was just more juvenile arguing and insults.

Does this site have a large percentage of M.D.'s posting here ?

A psychologist could use this website as a reference for many mental ailments and shortcomings.


DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW MUCH AN EXOGEN BIOVENTUS brand new is worth ?
 






Regarding the avg sale price for a stim unit it depends on who is paying. New to Medicare it prob goes for 4300. However every ins payor has a diff contract. Some as low as 1800.
 






Anonymous said:
That's a contradiction but since I have seen them on EBAY I figured it would be legal.

The patient had some major problems and with everything going on after her death I didn't even think about the unit. I was a little overwhelmed at the time. I guess if the rep. who came by and sold this at a BON SECOURS HOSPITAL would have checked up on her sale it could have happened. (since she died about 4 days after leaving hospital)

I would like to see it be used instead of it just becoming worthless trash.

I know after all the medical bills we have endured during the 38 years of her major case of M.S. we needed to reverse mortgage our house which is going to run out soon too.

I need the money.

I tried to read another thread on this website about this machine and it was just more juvenile arguing and insults.

Does this site have a large percentage of M.D.'s posting here ?

A psychologist could use this website as a reference for many mental ailments and shortcomings.


DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW MUCH AN EXOGEN BIOVENTUS brand new is worth ?
Click to expand...


Call the number on the back and explain the situation. It's possible they can help. If not, ask to be escalated to a manager.

Actual street value? $450 max if youre willing to break the law by selling a prescription. Very little chance of getting caught.
 












Anonymous said:
Who gives a fuck. You actually think the insurances companies care? Go look at the fresh fracture coverage that the Blues, United, Humana, etc cover for the Exogen. The studies were done on cortical and cancelus bone. We don't need to fund $ for each particular bone to the FDA waste of money and docs and insurance companies know if it works on a tib it works on a femur.

Next stupid comment?
Click to expand...

They care now. Because bone stimulation on an acute fracture is costly. You Exogen reps sell outside FDA indications and technically that is illegal.

One of my podiatry customers said he went to an Exogen sponsored program where he was wined and dined to hear speakers. Rep here talks about using it in acute bunionectomis and it's not approved for acute osteotomies or fusions. Wonder how much this adds to the ACA.
 






That is a complete lie and you know it. There is absolutely no incentive to promote for a bunionectomy or adjunct to a fusion/osteotomy because there is no reimbursement for those procedures whatsoever. No commercial carriers cover those procedures, and CMS does not either.

I'm sorry but EBI has old technology that required 8-10 hours per day to achieve a 60% range success rate. Doctors are not using this as much as Orthofix and Smith Nephew for clinical reasons. Patients are not going to wear a device for 8-10 hours every day for 3-4 months, no way.

What would you choose for your own fracture?
 






Read your op notes sometime. An Osteotomy is performed in the bunionectomy and yes Exogen codes as an acute met fracture. Yes, many payers ( except Medicare) pay based on acute met code NOT bunionectomy. 1st met incised on most.
But it's wasteful to use a bone stim on an acute osteotomy and it's not indicated.

Just a little FYI. Orthofix and EBI have a fusion indication. ( look at some of your Estim guidelines and indications). Exogen does not have a failed fusion indication.
 






Anonymous said:
That is a complete lie and you know it. There is absolutely no incentive to promote for a bunionectomy or adjunct to a fusion/osteotomy because there is no reimbursement for those procedures whatsoever. No commercial carriers cover those procedures, and CMS does not either.

I'm sorry but EBI has old technology that required 8-10 hours per day to achieve a 60% range success rate. Doctors are not using this as much as Orthofix and Smith Nephew for clinical reasons. Patients are not going to wear a device for 8-10 hours every day for 3-4 months, no way.

What would you choose for your own fracture?
Click to expand...

Orthofix. Patient can go about any activities so they are very compliant. People " wear" boots, clothes and other garments so it's not the big deal an Exogen or Donjoy rep makes it out to be.
 






Anonymous said:
Anyone who thinks a patient would rather wear a unit for 10 hours a day (Biomet) and get a 63% healing rate over an Exogen is an absolute moron. The Exogen is 20 minutes per day with an 86% success rate. The depth of penetration is 26.5 cm or 10.5 inches for those of you who struggle with conversion rates. Also, the Exogen ultrasound beam expands 2.5x the width of the transducer (the black thing). Anyone who thinks the 1970's technology of the Biomet bone stim is superior to the Exogen is seriously kidding themselves, or is easily fooled buy absolute garbage.

Techman
Click to expand...

Prove it. No scientific proof on exogen's transducer depth or width. Also no science behind your " proposed" mechanism of action. Smoke and Mirrors.
 






Just because your sales trainers haven't shown you any of this doesn't mean it's not true. Clinical models analyzing the US beam through bovine femurs are quite easy to do. If you do a little research on ultrasound you might find out that it can be altered with the transducer shape, intensity, pulse and frequency. You learn as a competitor that therapeutic ultrasound ( used in PT) etc only penetrates a few inches, but it is not the same transducer or beam. Look at diagnostics and the depth of penetration when examining the entire body cavities, organs, fetus, etc. US is also used to break up tumors deep within the body in oncology- the beam is focused to achieve deeper penetration, and the intensity and frequency are also different from therapy US.
You sound quite passionate about your device which is to be expected from a salesperson, but you are wrong when it comes to the effective depth of Exogen. Do you see any Universities doing any research with PEMF technology and fracture healing these days? Nope, it is an old and less effective technology, plain and simple. I would use it over Donjoy ( only Drs and clinics with a financial incentive use that one) but not the others.
 






Top Bottom
Back
Quote