<5% Market Share

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Anonymous said:
I remember about 5 years ago when I worked for Boston Sci and went to a meeting in Baltimore. At the meeting a rep from the South was going on an on about Biotronik. I was from the West and just laughed. I told him that we only saw Biotronik in pockets where the big 3 weren't around (smaller community hospitals). I told him that Bio was not even on the radar out West.

I left that meeting intrigued and called a friend of mine that worked for MDT at the time. That friend told me " we are more concerned about Bio than we are BSX because they have technology on their cans (in Europe) that we haven't been able to get on ours". I was amazed at her response. She was a manager and had privey info to certain competitive intelligence.

That was about 2007/2008 time frame and Biotronik marketshare was probably all of 1% out West and probably doing about 5 million annually.

Now, Biotronik has substantial marketshare out West. All it took was a few reps to have the opportunity to show EPs with open minds that Bio technology was equivalent in 99% of the implants (no 4F LV lead).

Hospitals that used to do zero implants annually are now doing over 200 Bio implants annually and growing.

Nobody in their right mind can sit around comparing the marketshare of the MDT brand. They are an idiot for even trying.

But, I will say this, physicians that use Bio do not have complaints based on service, technology or representation. If MDT went away tomorrow and doctors had to use Bio, they wouldn't miss MDT at all.

That's why Mr. Medtronic is on this board stomping and screaming about how great they are. He knows, just like I do..........that we are always a threat whether he sees us in his territory or not.
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BSX went away...why didn't BIO capitalize???? Your theory is shit.
 




Anonymous said:
Bsx still has a major presence dumbass.
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In 2006 Guidant/BSX owned 35% MS. Second to MDT. For the next 7 yrs BSX slipped to 15% MS. Why didn't BIO's MS go up? Where did the 20% BSX gave up go? The answer is = STJ and MDT

The the previous poster who said if one of the Big3 goes away BIO would thrive.....well???? One did and nothing happened! or are you saying if all competition went away and BIO was the only one standing, BIO would gain MS? Brilliant! Apprears, that's exactly what would need to happen!
 


Anonymous said:
In 2006 Guidant/BSX owned 35% MS. Second to MDT. For the next 7 yrs BSX slipped to 15% MS. Why didn't BIO's MS go up? Where did the 20% BSX gave up go? The answer is = STJ and MDT

The the previous poster who said if one of the Big3 goes away BIO would thrive.....well???? One did and nothing happened! or are you saying if all competition went away and BIO was the only one standing, BIO would gain MS? Brilliant! Apprears, that's exactly what would need to happen!
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Reps stayed and made their bed with the 15% share you speak of. It's all about reps. The EA saved the day for most companies.

Bio share has grown from 3% to 7%. That's not bad for a private company doing 1 billion annually
 


Anonymous said:
Reps stayed and made their bed with the 15% share you speak of. It's all about reps. The EA saved the day for most companies.

Bio share has grown from 3% to 7%. That's not bad for a private company doing 1 billion annually
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Here's your chance BIO Assholes! STJ and BSX are out of the picture start talking MS and making up #'s. I'm sure you had your "We're going to conquer the world" conf calls last night.....so bring it little boys!!!!! Don't forget to bring your knife to the gun fight!
 


Anonymous said:
Here's your chance BIO Assholes! STJ and BSX are out of the picture start talking MS and making up #'s. I'm sure you had your "We're going to conquer the world" conf calls last night.....so bring it little boys!!!!! Don't forget to bring your knife to the gun fight!
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Hahahahahahaha. It's sooooo gratifying that you are soooooo annoyed.
 






Anonymous said:
I used to work for Biotronik. The company is a joke. They have no clue what it takes to compete with the big 3.
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You probably failed. Anyways, I don't need Biotronik to compete with the Big 3. I just need the products and the tools to compete with anyone in my area.

Doing pretty well too.

Bio's nationwide marketshare means less to me than when I worked for the big 3 and I had dominant marketshare. It all comes down to what I sell in my geography.
 


Anonymous said:
You probably failed. Anyways, I don't need Biotronik to compete with the Big 3. I just need the products and the tools to compete with anyone in my area.

Doing pretty well too.

Bio's nationwide marketshare means less to me than when I worked for the big 3 and I had dominant marketshare. It all comes down to what I sell in my geography.
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You're prating for no market share because that means your comp will go down. BIO is trying to get their foot in the door at major acct's by offering rediculous pricing and driving down asp's. Once that happens you will finally have to work and make less $.
 


Anonymous said:
You're prating for no market share because that means your comp will go down. BIO is trying to get their foot in the door at major acct's by offering rediculous pricing and driving down asp's. Once that happens you will finally have to work and make less $.
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Makes no sense. In my area, it is medtronic that is driving down pricing via bulks and contracts.
 




Anonymous said:
where?
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This hilarious.... as you read these post you hear the MDT folks say, "BIO or anyone else will not be able to compete against the 'big boys' as we can drive MS through with lower ASP and bundles contracts, blah, blah, blah AND BIO will never be able to survive a market as such. Then.... in another post the MDT folks are blaming BIO for driving ASP's down. So which it is?

The way I see it, all companies are going to be forced to trim some fat and whether the MDT folks want to admit it or not they have fat everywhere with multiple layers of managers, multiple layers of reps (CRM, Reveal, etc.) and clinical staff that simply sit in hospitals all day everyday. If there is a company that is already lean and structured to move forward in a lean and efficient manner it is BIO. They do not have to answer to Wall Street. They do not have a board of directors that is worried more about the bottom line and the profits of shareholders than the actual day-to-day operations so more and more people are being laid off and will continue to be laid off.

So which is it? Is BIO ruining your precious way of life or are you doing it to yourself?
 


Anonymous said:
This hilarious.... as you read these post you hear the MDT folks say, "BIO or anyone else will not be able to compete against the 'big boys' as we can drive MS through with lower ASP and bundles contracts, blah, blah, blah AND BIO will never be able to survive a market as such. Then.... in another post the MDT folks are blaming BIO for driving ASP's down. So which it is?

The way I see it, all companies are going to be forced to trim some fat and whether the MDT folks want to admit it or not they have fat everywhere with multiple layers of managers, multiple layers of reps (CRM, Reveal, etc.) and clinical staff that simply sit in hospitals all day everyday. If there is a company that is already lean and structured to move forward in a lean and efficient manner it is BIO. They do not have to answer to Wall Street. They do not have a board of directors that is worried more about the bottom line and the profits of shareholders than the actual day-to-day operations so more and more people are being laid off and will continue to be laid off.

So which is it? Is BIO ruining your precious way of life or are you doing it to yourself?
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BIO is lean because it doesn't have enough MS to justify staffing and that same theory dictates lack luster growth. Stick with your story that you only care about your little care-free life style and stop talking about growth as if it's happening and you're just controlling your own destiny.

BIO's growth story continues to be negative because of the lack of talent they employ, limited new product lines, lack of service coverage and basic business tactics. How many ex-BIO employees ever get recruited to go to the big 3? How many big 3 employees have been recruited by BIO to drag their market over?

I would love to know the data on BIO's organic market growth versus BIO recruiting big 3 players dragging their pure relationship driven business over to BIO? Why is that important you ask? Well, it deflates all of your ms growth stories and should scare the hell out of you knowing BIO relies on an unsustainable growth practice.

Now that physicians will be relieved of their ability to choose device companies, the landscape BIO used as their hunting grounds is all changing...the pricing argument is pointless to the big 3. The biggest impact will be to BIO reps who rely on the pricing %'s but BIO will not be able to survive and compete in this changing market based on their current business model. BIO has not set themselves up to endure the pace and conditioning it takes to win a marathon. BIO just wants to win the sprint.
 


Anonymous said:
BIO is lean because it doesn't have enough MS to justify staffing and that same theory dictates lack luster growth. Stick with your story that you only care about your little care-free life style and stop talking about growth as if it's happening and you're just controlling your own destiny.

BIO's growth story continues to be negative because of the lack of talent they employ, limited new product lines, lack of service coverage and basic business tactics. How many ex-BIO employees ever get recruited to go to the big 3? How many big 3 employees have been recruited by BIO to drag their market over?

I would love to know the data on BIO's organic market growth versus BIO recruiting big 3 players dragging their pure relationship driven business over to BIO? Why is that important you ask? Well, it deflates all of your ms growth stories and should scare the hell out of you knowing BIO relies on an unsustainable growth practice.

Now that physicians will be relieved of their ability to choose device companies, the landscape BIO used as their hunting grounds is all changing...the pricing argument is pointless to the big 3. The biggest impact will be to BIO reps who rely on the pricing %'s but BIO will not be able to survive and compete in this changing market based on their current business model. BIO has not set themselves up to endure the pace and conditioning it takes to win a marathon. BIO just wants to win the sprint.
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I've worked for other big companies that enjoyed huge marketshare (ie baxter, jnj, guidant). They were all like MDT in theory that their huge marketshare would sustain market forces. All 3 lost their #1 status. One even lost completely by being bought out.

If Bio isn't relevant and/or cannot sustain in this market then a medtronic rep shouldn't even be on this board. I have MDT reps in my area that are nervous and have told me so. They know they will survive but at a cost that is huge to their bottom line.

You gawk about how MDT has MS and Bio has to rely on relationships to get theirs. You can blame that on Avamed. Once reps weren't allowed to entertain, it was to the advantage of the incumbent companies. But, nothing wrong with waiting on disgruntled reps from the "shrinkng 3" to change teams and deliver the same widget.

I cringe when I see your posts and how you stand behind your brand with the loyalty of a Jim Jones disciple. Have you not been paying attention to the economny and what corporate america does when their bottom line isn't what THEY want it? Go see Hostess (twinkies). Hostess did 2.65 Billion last year and dominates their market. But, they weren't hitting their number and after years of wage reductions and the like........they closed their doors and 18,500 employees are unemployed. 2.65 Billion!!! in revenue and they said fuck it.

Biotronik does over 1 Billion and is privately held. Bio pays their reps well. Bio pays its clinicals well. We don't have the R&D of the "shrinking 3" but we do have the service and the widget that is enough to do two things that CRM demands: 1) pace when supposed to pace and 2) shock when supposed to shock.

At the end of the day, that is ALL that the future healthcare market will care about. Does the basic widget work.

Have you checked out what has happened on the West Coast in the last 4 years? Or is it 5? Marketshare has moved substantially for Bio. Probably gone from less than 2% to 18-22%. In some areas Bio is a 90% player and the physician communitey and hospital admin realizes that nothing has changed but the brand.

That's what should worry you. So, keep your people happy over there at MDT because if any of them get the shaft and have good relationships they will be of value.

You're the dumb dumb if you can be replaced at Medtronic and the doctor or hospital doesn't care. You're the replaceable one. You are the one with the dumb business model.

Sure, MDT has a great business model which is "make our reps and clinicals interchangeable, replaceable and unimportant". That way we can cut folks, layoff folks, reduce commissions, increase workload, etc. and nobody will say shit except to gripe because they have no value.

At Bio, the rep is of value. Sure, hospital contracts are important. Very. But, soon, blocking companies out of hospitals will not only be a thing of the past but illegal. There is legislation moving to the Supreme Courts as we speak that will outlaw suppression of trade in medicare hospitals.

Uh oh.
 


Anonymous said:
BIO is lean because it doesn't have enough MS to justify staffing and that same theory dictates lack luster growth. Stick with your story that you only care about your little care-free life style and stop talking about growth as if it's happening and you're just controlling your own destiny.

BIO's growth story continues to be negative because of the lack of talent they employ, limited new product lines, lack of service coverage and basic business tactics. How many ex-BIO employees ever get recruited to go to the big 3? How many big 3 employees have been recruited by BIO to drag their market over?

I would love to know the data on BIO's organic market growth versus BIO recruiting big 3 players dragging their pure relationship driven business over to BIO? Why is that important you ask? Well, it deflates all of your ms growth stories and should scare the hell out of you knowing BIO relies on an unsustainable growth practice.

Now that physicians will be relieved of their ability to choose device companies, the landscape BIO used as their hunting grounds is all changing...the pricing argument is pointless to the big 3. The biggest impact will be to BIO reps who rely on the pricing %'s but BIO will not be able to survive and compete in this changing market based on their current business model. BIO has not set themselves up to endure the pace and conditioning it takes to win a marathon. BIO just wants to win the sprint.
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Your (and others) spirit chant for MDT or the Big 3 is tiring. It is old. For the love man... you are including STJ in the 'Big 3' and they are a total mess. BIO is a smaller company- we all know that. They might not be on the forefront of groundbreaking technology but it is working for them so far. Who put the first 7F ICD lead out in the market? How'd that go for you? There is not 1 BIO rep that even imagines that BIO is as big as MDT or even competes with MDT on a national level. All they need to worry about is their own local territories AND by the looks of it if they have went from 3% to 7% in the past 2-3 years then they are obviously taking MS from somebody/someplace. They have been here since 1962 and the same old story keeps getting puked out of MDT reps everywhere... they are irrelevant, they won't make it, it's a marathon, larger contracts/GPO's, they are a me too company, yada yada yada.... Some of that might be true BUT they are still here. So where are they taking MS from???? Right out from underneath some of your asses! You guys are too friggin funny.
 




suppression of trade?

I believe Applied Medical won a landmark case vs JNJ for this very issue back in 2007ish. coattails on this ruling?

I hope so, bigger and better means less innovation and big fat rebate checks to people who don't know shit about patient care.

Sad part, only a few people benefit from these rebate checks and at best less than 5% of them have any clinical skills or abilities.

This is why gain sharing is bs and any MD who is involved in this should be at the same scrutinzation as a device company under the ADVAMED and Sunshine acts
 


Anonymous said:
suppression of trade?

I believe Applied Medical won a landmark case vs JNJ for this very issue back in 2007ish. coattails on this ruling?

I hope so, bigger and better means less innovation and big fat rebate checks to people who don't know shit about patient care.

Sad part, only a few people benefit from these rebate checks and at best less than 5% of them have any clinical skills or abilities.

This is why gain sharing is bs and any MD who is involved in this should be at the same scrutinzation as a device company under the ADVAMED and Sunshine acts
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Shaking my head back and forth.... WTF?????
 


whatever. The bio folks can say or spin it anyway they care too. You are too small to really factor into this very much. I have yet to work with an implanter that said I'm tired of MDT,SJM and or BSX and now I'm trying BIO. Not saying that it has not happened somewhere but not anywhere near me.
 



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