Happy vs Unhappy - what do you think?

[GorgeousGAMS]

Well, you get him the sort of therapy and counseling which shows him that he CAN change, because most motivated homosexuals CAN change. You also emphasize the healing power of Christ. You love him and you pray for him and you support him, but you NEVER accept that being "gay" is anything but either a choice or a disorder. Nothing to be ashamed of or run from, but something to be dealt with.

A person may not choose their orientation, few if any of us do, but we can control our behavior and with the proper help and prayer orientation can usually be changed. If it can't the options remain the same as for everyone under the Biblical standard. Chastity in singleness or heterosexual marriage. There are many ex-gays out there who are now happily married (real marriage, not homosexual sham marriage).

Well, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and the odds do stack in favor when social norms and family norms are inline with strong moral values. However, I do not believe there is real scientific evidence (peer reviewed and not from a Christian journal but Behavior/Psych/Social) that has ever shown homosexuality can be treated and cured by prayer and support or therapy. The last thing I read there was a very high relapse rate and few lifetime successes. Yes, there are a few well-publicized stories in the Christian literature of stunning successes.

At the very least, it is nice to hear you would not perform an exorcism or throw the kid out or have him/her institutionalized. Chastity is certainly an option but I don't know how viable or realistic. Just a heads up, there are lots of gay "marriages" that are very happy and married/faithful for life. There are also gay penguins.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

MFAS: the reason I said it would take a deep conversation about this topic for someone to truly understand exactly what a person "means" when they say they judge others is because those words are easily taken out of context.

I will not go into the whole thing but I have a friend that I love dearly and she is a wonderful Christian lady, BUT in my opinion she is way over the top to judge others and says things constantly (IMO) that appears/sounds to me to be more rude, mean and self righteous. No matter how good of a person I am or try to be, it is NEVER good enough; yet she seems to do NO wrong; not even in her tone or words to me. I love her dearly, but I am a nervous wreck when I am around her too long. She is never lost for words to point out all of my flaws, problems, past things that even "I" do not remember.

I have always been conservative, but yes I, like everyone else have things that I am not proud of and failed; but once forgiven by my God, isn't that forgiven? Thrown into the sea of forgiveness? If so, why do I have to tolerate hearing about every single word I have ever uttered in my past that she finds wrong?

2 things come to my mind:

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast". IMO, my friend boasts A LOT.

and:

"For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind". After being around this friend for too long I do not feel a lot of love and no sound mind. It is possible and even speaks of it in the Bible that their are those that can turn people away from knowing God, and this is a sin as well.

I also stand on the authority of Scripture and do my best each and every day to live my life as Jesus guides me to do; but I am human and do fail; pick myself up, take it to God and try again.

If I allowed myself to listen to this friend of mine, I would feel horrible about myself and I know differently. But she has her way of doing her Faith and I have mine.

You're friend has a critical spirit and that is a major problem which she needs to address.

And because I know how some of our little playmates think I'll go ahead and say it: NO, I don't have a critical spirit, despite what you think. Just mark it down as being wrong yet again if you believe that.

There is a world of difference in an interpersonal, face to face relationship and posting on an anonymous internet board. When I bust people out here, it's because they deserve it.

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

Appoligize. . . Good grief, Ok. You did. I am sorry for jumping down your throat but I am very defensive about my son. Raising a special needs kid is a nightmare. Well, until you let go and let them be who they are and give up your own personal hopes and dreams for them but that took 25 years.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

Well, I appreciate your thoughtfulness and the odds do stack in favor when social norms and family norms are inline with strong moral values. However, I do not believe there is real scientific evidence (peer reviewed and not from a Christian journal but Behavior/Psych/Social) that has ever shown homosexuality can be treated and cured by prayer and support or therapy. The last thing I read there was a very high relapse rate and few lifetime successes. Yes, there are a few well-publicized stories in the Christian literature of stunning successes.
There's some solid data out there. Be mindful that lots of the psych lit out there is very politically correct and biased against the concept that homosexuality can be changed with reparative therapy. There are some clinicians out there with impecable credentials who have many case studies showing that orientation can successfully be changed in many cases. Homosexuality is a disorder, whether developmental or organic, it is clearly not normal and as such should be approached as any other disorder ie how can we best treat it?


At the very least, it is nice to hear you would not perform an exorcism or throw the kid out or have him/her institutionalized. Chastity is certainly an option but I don't know how viable or realistic.Realistic, just difficult, but possible Just a heads up, there are lots of gay "marriages" that are very happy and married/faithful for life. Fully aware of this, but that doesn't make them a good thing and it's definitely against Biblical teaching!There are also gay penguins.

Haven't you heard? God hates gay penguins!

 

[Man For All Seasons]

WOW...you have NO idea how much peace that statement just brought to me! I have never thought of it that way, but you are spot on: a critical spirit. Of course I would never tell her that....she would completely disagree; but it is true IMO.

Glad to know that what I posted brought you peace. It really troubles me when people like your friend hurt those around them whom they should be building up by harming them, knowingly or unknowingly, with a critical spirit. Maybe it's a thing from her childhood or something. It's definitely a mental or behavioral habit that she needs to take to God and start dealing with. But like all the rest of us, God isn't finished with her yet.

 

[Vagitarian]

As Phoebe so shrewdly points out, you just don't get the point. My reply was not about your offspring, but about you and your hypocrisy.

It is only sex right? There are zero implications to having as much as you can with whoever you can. That is the lifestyle you claim to live and you have a shitfit if anyone points out that it has a deleterious effect on society.

If you truly believed what you say here, you would have the courage of your convictions and they would hold forth whether it is yourself or your offspring.

The fact that you reacted the way you did proves I am right, and the reason you are so pissed is because you know it proves I am right.

Say what you want about me and MFAS, but we have the courage of our convictions and are consistent in our beliefs unlike you whose beliefs appear to be situational.

For the record, I could care less about our daughter and her field trip. I care about being right, which I was.


Now here is where you bring up the stock market predictions LOL

My reply was not about your offspring,

Say what? Liar, liar, pants on fire - who did you say I should tell, 'take plenty of condoms'? myself? I'm not going, she is. You're a pathetic bag of wind and a bad liar.

 

[thehairyfiddler]

Hairy, ILA, and MFAS: You do realize there are plenty of men just like you with their "tight" christian families that (Oh no) discover one of their children is gay or their daughter is pregnant at 15. There are just as many kids from disgusting drug ridden violent, degrading backgrounds who end up becoming doctors and lawyers, pillars of the community. You all seem to believe that not only can you sway and control the behavior of people you hardly know who have opposite viewpoints but that your families are NOT going to be touched by (horror) some unGodly breach of morality. What would you do? Seriously. Let's just say for S&G that your 17 year old son has been depressed and suicidal. He gets out of the hospital and tells you that he is gay. He knows it and tells you he cannot change. Now what?

I have no problem with gay people at all. I believe they are born that way. And...they never kill their unborn children.

Moreover...religion does not dictate to me social evaluations. My views are based on what's good for the human race.

 

[Vagitarian]

You're friend has a critical spirit and that is a major problem which she needs to address.

And because I know how some of our little playmates think I'll go ahead and say it: NO, I don't have a critical spirit, despite what you think. Just mark it down as being wrong yet again if you believe that.

There is a world of difference in an interpersonal, face to face relationship and posting on an anonymous internet board. When I bust people out here, it's because they deserve it.

When I bust people out here, it's because they deserve it.

With one qualifier - 'in your opinion'.

 

[Vagitarian]

I owe you an apology for what? You pulled your thread because of me? for what?

You had unprotected sex at the age of 42. Women get pregnant all the time at that age. Your ace in the hole? Abortion. No different than the 19 year old who thinks she won't get pregnant. But "if it happens" then abort...turn the page and rock on.

The point of that post was as clear as the nose on your face. You....along with several others here....always cite all of these "extenuating circumstances" to justify abortion.

It is not normal to abort your own flesh and blood. And in your case....there were no "extenuating circumstances". None!

You...along with millions of others have a mindset....that abortion is OK as a last resort for birth control. Are we humans any different than dogs? or pigs? Or rats for that matter?

Or do we have a free will? My dog does not have a free will. People do.

I believe that the human race is a special breed. But when we don't take the smallest amount of care in how we get our rocks off...in order to prevent having to kill our own flesh and blood...then we lower ourselves to the non reasoning animal kingdom.

Abortion is a very natural thing, a way for a woman to deal with a pregnancy issue that has been in existence for ages. It is practiced in every country and every society in the world. If it weren't for abortion, we'd be in bad shape population wise. Our country is certainly not the highest in terms of abortion rate and most of the countries with low rates are places you wouldn't want to be (Africa, Mexico). We need medically safe abortion for our women.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/index.html#SU

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

Hairy, you absolutely do. I did not pull the thread. You missed the point were I said that I would have loved to have another child but was on black box mediation that carried absolutely no hope of a normal birth and my health even then had issues, big issues that I am not going to discuss here. MY doctor recommended it and I had been told previously I could no longer have children. I have no idea how you seem to read over and not see FACTS that make a HUGE difference. I was faced with that one thing that we all dread. I subsequently had a hysterectomy to prevent any further problems. Now this thread will probably get yanked if you turn it into some kind of political debate. Your family would have made the same fucking choice with the medical scenario that was before me.

 

[I Love America]

Appoligize. . . Good grief, Ok. You did. I am sorry for jumping down your throat but I am very defensive about my son. Raising a special needs kid is a nightmare. Well, until you let go and let them be who they are and give up your own personal hopes and dreams for them but that took 25 years.

I guess that amounts to an apology, so I will honor my word and answer your questions. Bear in mind that I am speaking in hypotheticals and I am not commenting on my current family situation.

1) You asked what I would do if I had a teen daughter who became pregnant. I would first apologize to her for failing her as a parent. If she made the choice to have unprotected sex and I obviously didn't convey the consequences of such risky behavior. Or she failed to heed. But, either way, there was a failure. Then I would encourage her to carry the child to term and place the child up for adoption. I would support her 100% throughout the entire process. I would counsel against trying to raise the child herself because although we would do our best to support her, she is imprisoning that child to a life of difficulty. We won't be around forever. The child is a gift from God. It should be treated as such and given the best chance for an upbringing.

2) You asked what I would do if I had a son/daughter who was gay. I would love them and support them. I would want them to be happy. I would not try to change them. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

3) You asked what I would do if I found out my wife cheated on me years ago. The answer is simple. I would obviously be hurt, but eventually, I would forgive. She is afterall the mother of my children and a great mother at that. But, I would divorce her. The simple reason is that she would have broken faith with our vows and trust would be gone. I believe that relationships can survive many ups and downs, but once trust is destroyed that is it.

4) You asked what I would do if my pastor were discovered to have an extramarital affair. Again, I would support him the best that I could, but I would not turn my back on him.

You seem to be harboring this illusion that because I have strong opinions about right and wrong that I am somehow this cruel being with no compassion, and that I do not recognize that people make mistakes.

You could not be more wrong. As Hairy said, my beliefs stem from what I believe is best for society as a whole. So, I don't believe that women having promiscuous sex is good for them individually or for society. I believe they denigrate themselves. However, you are free to do what you please. I agree 100% that what happens in your bedroom is your business, that is why I am amazed that you people don't leave it in your bedroom. Then you act shocked when people comment on it.

 

[I Love America]

Abortion is a very natural thing, a way for a woman to deal with a pregnancy issue that has been in existence for ages. It is practiced in every country and every society in the world. If it weren't for abortion, we'd be in bad shape population wise. Our country is certainly not the highest in terms of abortion rate and most of the countries with low rates are places you wouldn't want to be (Africa, Mexico). We need medically safe abortion for our women.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/index.html#SU

If it were natural, then they wouldn't need to go to a doctor. I love all the stories about coat hangers as if having a baby is such a horrible thing that a woman would actually take a metal coat hanger and jam it up her vagina in an effort to kill the unborn child. Doesn't that seem a bit over the top to you?

When you can come up with an abortion that is medically safe for the unborn child then give me a call. We can chat about it

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

I guess that amounts to an apology, so I will honor my word and answer your questions. Bear in mind that I am speaking in hypotheticals and I am not commenting on my current family situation.

1) You asked what I would do if I had a teen daughter who became pregnant. I would first apologize to her for failing her as a parent. If she made the choice to have unprotected sex and I obviously didn't convey the consequences of such risky behavior. Or she failed to heed. But, either way, there was a failure. Then I would encourage her to carry the child to term and place the child up for adoption. I would support her 100% throughout the entire process. I would counsel against trying to raise the child herself because although we would do our best to support her, she is imprisoning that child to a life of difficulty. We won't be around forever. The child is a gift from God. It should be treated as such and given the best chance for an upbringing.

2) You asked what I would do if I had a son/daughter who was gay. I would love them and support them. I would want them to be happy. I would not try to change them. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

3) You asked what I would do if I found out my wife cheated on me years ago. The answer is simple. I would obviously be hurt, but eventually, I would forgive. She is afterall the mother of my children and a great mother at that. But, I would divorce her. The simple reason is that she would have broken faith with our vows and trust would be gone. I believe that relationships can survive many ups and downs, but once trust is destroyed that is it.

4) You asked what I would do if my pastor were discovered to have an extramarital affair. Again, I would support him the best that I could, but I would not turn my back on him.

You seem to be harboring this illusion that because I have strong opinions about right and wrong that I am somehow this cruel being with no compassion, and that I do not recognize that people make mistakes.

You could not be more wrong. As Hairy said, my beliefs stem from what I believe is best for society as a whole. So, I don't believe that women having promiscuous sex is good for them individually or for society. I believe they denigrate themselves. However, you are free to do what you please. I agree 100% that what happens in your bedroom is your business, that is why I am amazed that you people don't leave it in your bedroom. Then you act shocked when people comment on it.

Nicely put. . . it is kind of funny these threads always turn to politics or sex. Ever check out the number one thread of all time on here and its runner-up? . . . sex! Yep. You actually sound like a kind-hearted soul and not nearly as crazy as I thought. Interesting, I would do all of the same things with the exception of one of your answers and yet we carry completely opposite belief systems. I would not divorce my husband for cheating. I would want to work on the relationship. People are never as different as they seem.

 

[LOVEtheHENS]

Ya Know!!! I shouldn't comment on this thread about my thoughts on several side tracked topics that have birthed from the original topic; so I won't.

BUT...I would like to ask a question. What in the world has caused so much poison between several of you?

Vag: I have had the pleasure of talking to him via phone several times and while I may not agree with many of his liberal ways I find him to be extremely pleasant, intelligent and having a deep respect and love for “family”, animals and I have enjoyed our talks. He knows I am a conservative gal but we had too many other great topics to discuss to bother with talking about differences in our life styles.

BN: I have not talked to him via phone, but enjoyed a lengthy conversation with him in chat one night and found that he was also a pleasant guy; very real, down to earth and enjoys many things outside of this site as well; also a deep respect and love for family and pets (always a plus for me!!).

ILA: OK everyone flame me if ya want; but I love this guy! I have never had the pleasure to speak with him but I find his view points on things to be insightful, sharp, intelligent, and yes fair most of the time. I had read many of his posts and right away I can see and understand what he is saying while it seems many miss his main points and take them out of content. He may seem curt to many but ILA in my book is an awesome man with great wisdom and a funny sense of humor (I get it).

MFAS: Have never talked with him but I think he has many good points, very sharp and passionate about his beliefs. I am also very passionate about my Faith and I could NOT live in my daily world without my Faith; I turn to God for light on my path. I do think some of his points are very strong and could be challenged but for the most part I agree with him except for the part where it is our duty to set in judgment of others. That is a deep topic and one that would have to be completely understood to “get’ where someone is coming from with saying those words.

Hairy: Love him!! What a breath of fresh air from someone with a lifetime of experience and wisdom. I couldn’t say enough nice things about him and I don’t even know him but I enjoy his posts!

The above is just my take on several of the guys in here; each one of them in my opinion has great qualities. We ARE all different; we do NOT have to agree with one another but it would be nice to at least find something good about each other. And NO I am not ready to sing cume by ya; I am not very liberal; but I do at least try to find positives in everyone I meet. That doesn’t mean we HAVE to like everyone…but I can find “something” positive in just about anyone; even those in my world that drive me crazy and I will forever disagree with on certain topics.

Can I be your pet?? Love ya!!

 

[Pale Horse]

I guess that amounts to an apology, so I will honor my word and answer your questions. Bear in mind that I am speaking in hypotheticals and I am not commenting on my current family situation.

1) You asked what I would do if I had a teen daughter who became pregnant. I would first apologize to her for failing her as a parent. If she made the choice to have unprotected sex and I obviously didn't convey the consequences of such risky behavior. Or she failed to heed. But, either way, there was a failure. Then I would encourage her to carry the child to term and place the child up for adoption. I would support her 100% throughout the entire process. I would counsel against trying to raise the child herself because although we would do our best to support her, she is imprisoning that child to a life of difficulty. We won't be around forever. The child is a gift from God. It should be treated as such and given the best chance for an upbringing.

2) You asked what I would do if I had a son/daughter who was gay. I would love them and support them. I would want them to be happy. I would not try to change them. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

3) You asked what I would do if I found out my wife cheated on me years ago. The answer is simple. I would obviously be hurt, but eventually, I would forgive. She is afterall the mother of my children and a great mother at that. But, I would divorce her. The simple reason is that she would have broken faith with our vows and trust would be gone. I believe that relationships can survive many ups and downs, but once trust is destroyed that is it.

4) You asked what I would do if my pastor were discovered to have an extramarital affair. Again, I would support him the best that I could, but I would not turn my back on him.

You seem to be harboring this illusion that because I have strong opinions about right and wrong that I am somehow this cruel being with no compassion, and that I do not recognize that people make mistakes.

You could not be more wrong. As Hairy said, my beliefs stem from what I believe is best for society as a whole. So, I don't believe that women having promiscuous sex is good for them individually or for society. I believe they denigrate themselves. However, you are free to do what you please. I agree 100% that what happens in your bedroom is your business, that is why I am amazed that you people don't leave it in your bedroom. Then you act shocked when people comment on it.

You sure do handle things calmer than I would.

 

[Pussy cop]

You sure do handle things calmer than I would.

Amen!

 

[Walking Eagle]

She IS a good Christian and I truly do not think she treats her other friends as she treats me (over 20 yrs now). I have struggled with my "walk" since I was Baptisted at the age of 16 or 17....and at the age of 52 she will still say that I am a 'baby Christian" which infuriates me; but I usually smile and go on and not rude to her. But she insists that just because I am quite sometimes and do not raise my voice to her doesn't mean I am fully mature in my Christian life.

I can't win with her. LOL

I want to also say that I do agree with GG; it is hard to be too narrow in our thoughts and judgments because we never know what might come our way; many times the very thing we are against will visit us as a trial. Example: one of my best and dearest friend that would have NEVER accepted her child being gay.....IS. They just found out almost 2 yrs ago and it nearly destroyed them. She took him to doctors, to the priest, prayed, researched, cried, talked, cried, etc....but he is still gay. His choice, not the parents. If there were a fix or cure for it, they would have given their life for it; but still HIS choice. So they are loving HIM, but NOT his choice.

Thsi lady is very insecure in her own beliefs. To make herself look better, she finds fault in others. Find it difficult to understand why you would continue to associate with some one who constantly causes you grief. I avoid those who act this way. Anyone who is actually mature in their Christianity do NOT belittle "baby" Christians, they try to help them to get fruther down the path and closer to God.

 

[Vagitarian]

Thsi lady is very insecure in her own beliefs. To make herself look better, she finds fault in others. Find it difficult to understand why you would continue to associate with some one who constantly causes you grief. I avoid those who act this way. Anyone who is actually mature in their Christianity do NOT belittle "baby" Christians, they try to help them to get fruther down the path and closer to God.

Agree completely, same thing for 'Christian' posters on a blog.

 

[Walking Eagle]

I guess that amounts to an apology, so I will honor my word and answer your questions. Bear in mind that I am speaking in hypotheticals and I am not commenting on my current family situation.

1) You asked what I would do if I had a teen daughter who became pregnant. I would first apologize to her for failing her as a parent. If she made the choice to have unprotected sex and I obviously didn't convey the consequences of such risky behavior. Or she failed to heed. But, either way, there was a failure. Then I would encourage her to carry the child to term and place the child up for adoption. I would support her 100% throughout the entire process. I would counsel against trying to raise the child herself because although we would do our best to support her, she is imprisoning that child to a life of difficulty. We won't be around forever. The child is a gift from God. It should be treated as such and given the best chance for an upbringing.

2) You asked what I would do if I had a son/daughter who was gay. I would love them and support them. I would want them to be happy. I would not try to change them. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

3) You asked what I would do if I found out my wife cheated on me years ago. The answer is simple. I would obviously be hurt, but eventually, I would forgive. She is afterall the mother of my children and a great mother at that. But, I would divorce her. The simple reason is that she would have broken faith with our vows and trust would be gone. I believe that relationships can survive many ups and downs, but once trust is destroyed that is it.

4) You asked what I would do if my pastor were discovered to have an extramarital affair. Again, I would support him the best that I could, but I would not turn my back on him.

You seem to be harboring this illusion that because I have strong opinions about right and wrong that I am somehow this cruel being with no compassion, and that I do not recognize that people make mistakes.

You could not be more wrong. As Hairy said, my beliefs stem from what I believe is best for society as a whole. So, I don't believe that women having promiscuous sex is good for them individually or for society. I believe they denigrate themselves. However, you are free to do what you please. I agree 100% that what happens in your bedroom is your business, that is why I am amazed that you people don't leave it in your bedroom. Then you act shocked when people comment on it.

Please explain why you can rebuild trust in a pastor who has strayed, but not with your wife/mother of your children. Why does he get a second chance but not her?

 

[Vagitarian]

I guess that amounts to an apology, so I will honor my word and answer your questions. Bear in mind that I am speaking in hypotheticals and I am not commenting on my current family situation.
Amazing how similar we are in what we'd do, different reasons though.
1) You asked what I would do if I had a teen daughter who became pregnant. I would first apologize to her for failing her as a parent. If she made the choice to have unprotected sex and I obviously didn't convey the consequences of such risky behavior. Or she failed to heed. But, either way, there was a failure. Then I would encourage her to carry the child to term and place the child up for adoption. I would support her 100% throughout the entire process. I would counsel against trying to raise the child herself because although we would do our best to support her, she is imprisoning that child to a life of difficulty. We won't be around forever. The child is a gift from God. It should be treated as such and given the best chance for an upbringing.
When you say 'encourage' that indicates room for the choice of termination. Being pro-choice, I would also help her evaluate the situation and make the best choice for her - a major consideration being the status of the young man she was involved with. Could he be a suitable husband? parent? A teen could be a 14 yr old or an 18 yr old - big difference. .
2) You asked what I would do if I had a son/daughter who was gay. I would love them and support them. I would want them to be happy. I would not try to change them. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
I'd do the same without harboring the concept of sin - rather a variation in behavior that can make life difficult.
3) You asked what I would do if I found out my wife cheated on me years ago. The answer is simple. I would obviously be hurt, but eventually, I would forgive. She is afterall the mother of my children and a great mother at that. But, I would divorce her. The simple reason is that she would have broken faith with our vows and trust would be gone. I believe that relationships can survive many ups and downs, but once trust is destroyed that is it.
Ditto
4) You asked what I would do if my pastor were discovered to have an extramarital affair. Again, I would support him the best that I could, but I would not turn my back on him.
If I had a pastor, that's what I'd do.
You seem to be harboring this illusion that because I have strong opinions about right and wrong that I am somehow this cruel being with no compassion, and that I do not recognize that people make mistakes.
It isn't your opinions, it's your presentation and before you flame me, consider that many have commented on it.

You could not be more wrong. As Hairy said, my beliefs stem from what I believe is best for society as a whole. So, I don't believe that women having promiscuous sex is good for them individually or for society. I believe they denigrate themselves. However, you are free to do what you please. I agree 100% that what happens in your bedroom is your business, that is why I am amazed that you people don't leave it in your bedroom. Then you act shocked when people comment on it.

Thanks for the freedom, again, it isn't your opinion, it's your presentation
Amazing how much we agree on actions, just different reasons which are our fundamental rights.