What are your thoughts?

This "dehydrating" thing what are you thinking? I have had four people very close to me wish to die at home. How it worked was to quit eating for about three weeks. At that point, their sugar went so low the body shut down and they slipped into a coma. Now they needed no water or food and passed within days never waking up. I was there for two bedside and this is how they chose to go. It was fairly peaceful. They were on lots of medication for pain, kept clean and comfortable. Believe me the people that go of things like COPD, it is absolutely the worst most agonizing death I have ever heard or seen. See it and you'll never touch another cigarette. I know how I'm going if it's not in a car someday.

Terri Schiavo was dehydrated to death. That is what I'm talking about. Water and food were withheld from her. You die much quicker from lack of water than you do food and it isn't a pleasant way to go. That was my point.

You know if they were going to allow her "husband" to kill her the least they could have done was euthanized her with a merciful administration of drugs.
 






Let me axe a serious question here:

If heaven is supposed to be 'glory' and 'life eternal' and the place we're all just here temporarily for because we're trying to get there - then wouldn't we want someone who is having a terrible life (T.Schiavo) or a fetus who would be at a disadvantage (abortion) to have the opportunity to go there? A fetus hasn't even had the chance to do something fun that would disqualify them - they just get to cruise on in free!

So if eternal life in heaven is 'where it's at' - what's the concern with the here and now? I think people talk 'eternal life' and talk 'heaven' but I don't think for a minute they have actually sat down, thought it out and believe it is better than life here on earth.

I mean why did Jesus rise up into ythe sky? Hell, he was home with dad, in the bast of places, the Romans were being assholes, why didn't he just stay there?

Try to formulate a serious question delivered in a serious way and you'll get an answer.
 






I tend to agree with you and for that reason, I think 'life' is much better than 'heave' (whatever that is). I think Christians actually feel this way too and that heaven is a fairy tale or a myth they haven't really thought. For that reason, I don't understand the fixation on heaven & hell but thought I'd ask.

You should and you have no excuse. Think, think real hard if you can. What have I pointed out to you on multiple occasions? Hitler? Mother Theresa? Ring a bell?
 






Let me axe a serious question here:

If heaven is supposed to be 'glory' and 'life eternal' and the place we're all just here temporarily for because we're trying to get there - then wouldn't we want someone who is having a terrible life (T.Schiavo) or a fetus who would be at a disadvantage (abortion) to have the opportunity to go there? A fetus hasn't even had the chance to do something fun that would disqualify them - they just get to cruise on in free!

So if eternal life in heaven is 'where it's at' - what's the concern with the here and now? I think people talk 'eternal life' and talk 'heaven' but I don't think for a minute they have actually sat down, thought it out and believe it is better than life here on earth.

I mean why did Jesus rise up into ythe sky? Hell, he was home with dad, in the bast of places, the Romans were being assholes, why didn't he just stay there?
AXE?? Are you a brother or are you making fun of them?
 


















Interesting comments. I have a little different take. It is tragic that the lawyers were able to paint this mother as a heartless, overwhelmed mom and that this was her reason for her decision. If this child were an adult, capable of making their own decisions, they would understand that chemotherapy has miserable side effects. As a patient, you are encourage to understand the treatment, costs, risks, and benefits. You then make an active CHOICE as to whether you want treatment or not. The reality is, the treatment he DID cause a secondary cancer. The mother WAS told the cancer was in remission but she had to keep giving him more medicine (is the doctor guilty for not making sure the mom understood why she should keep giving the meds? Especially knowing the mother had some mental illness issues of her own? And what about the fact she tried telling the doctor, several times, just how sick the boy was and it fell on deaf ears?). So, she thought he was cured, was fine, yet she was supposed to keep giving him medicine that made him sick. And it DID make him horribly sick and now there was a second cancer that would need treatment. The mother is the only one who could make the decision of whether the treatment was worth it or not. And don't minimize the side effects as nausea and headaches. You know that the skin cells from the mouth to the anus slough off during treatment, right?

Think about what this mother was facing, giving her 9 year old medicine with no help and no support, and knowing it is making him miserably ill. The child was non verbal so there was no way to explain to him or make him understand that mommy is hurting you terribly to make you better, and even though the doctor says your cancer is in remission, mommy still has to keep hurting you.. It would tear most of us apart. I really love their inane argument that she didn't have the 'typical' reaction of a mother losing custody of her child (which happened during the years between identification of the non-treatment and the boy's death). Is there a typical reaction? If you have not had a single moment of time for yourself, not only dealing with a special needs child, but one with cancer, and then lost custody, is it so hard to understand why she took some time for herself and got a haircut?

When a patient is an adult and can communicate with us, even if we don't agree with their decision, no one convicts them for refusing treatment because they can't bear the side effects or even if they choose to not bear the financial costs. We allow people to die with dignity, on their own terms, especially since with cancer, there are no guarantees the treatment will work - even in this case, the argument was the drugs could 'potentially' cure him. With a child, a parent had to make that decision. Calling this attempted murder is horribly wrong.

So do parents no longer have the right to decide what treatment their children do and do not receive? At what point are we told, do what the doctor says, or else? We are mad at insurance companies for refusing high cost treatments if the added life time is 6 months or less, but now we are allowing a doctor, and believe me, each makes different medical JUDGMENT decisions, to convict this woman of murder because she didn't agree with his treatment plan? And if the child died from side effects of the chemo medicine, would the doctor have been charged? How about if the patient dies from an infection because they are weak (happens every day) - who goes to jail?

Every day, in cancer centers around the country, there are patients refusing potentially curative treatments because they do not want to bear the side effects and financial costs. There are also patients who will see no benefit from chemotherapy, and it might even potentially harm them and shorten their lives, but they demand it and the doctors give it to them. Who has the right to make these decisions? As a parent, I sure don't want to be required to follow the doc's instructions, no matter what I decide.

And is it karma that the dad did nothing to help out during this boy's short life, other than fight the mother for custody when she wouldn't give more treatments, and then promptly put him in hospice so he still didn't have to deal with it, and then he was killed a few months later?
 
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Interesting comments. I have a little different take. It is tragic that the lawyers were able to paint this mother as a heartless, overwhelmed mom and that this was her reason for her decision. If this child were an adult, capable of making their own decisions, they would understand that chemotherapy has miserable side effects. As a patient, you are encourage to understand the treatment, costs, risks, and benefits. You then make an active CHOICE as to whether you want treatment or not. The reality is, the treatment he DID cause a secondary cancer. The mother WAS told the cancer was in remission but she had to keep giving him more medicine (is the doctor guilty for not making sure the mom understood why she should keep giving the meds? Especially knowing the mother had some mental illness issues of her own? And what about the fact she tried telling the doctor, several times, just how sick the boy was and it fell on deaf ears?). So, she thought he was cured, was fine, yet she was supposed to keep giving him medicine that made him sick. And it DID make him horribly sick and now there was a second cancer that would need treatment. The mother is the only one who could make the decision of whether the treatment was worth it or not. And don't minimize the side effects as nausea and headaches. You know that the skin cells from the mouth to the anus slough off during treatment, right?

Think about what this mother was facing, giving her 9 year old medicine with no help and no support, and knowing it is making him miserably ill. The child was non verbal so there was no way to explain to him or make him understand that mommy is hurting you terribly to make you better, and even though the doctor says your cancer is in remission, mommy still has to keep hurting you.. It would tear most of us apart. I really love their inane argument that she didn't have the 'typical' reaction of a mother losing custody of her child (which happened during the years between identification of the non-treatment and the boy's death). Is there a typical reaction? If you have not had a single moment of time for yourself, not only dealing with a special needs child, but one with cancer, and then lost custody, is it so hard to understand why she took some time for herself and got a haircut?

When a patient is an adult and can communicate with us, even if we don't agree with their decision, no one convicts them for refusing treatment because they can't bear the side effects or even if they choose to not bear the financial costs. We allow people to die with dignity, on their own terms, especially since with cancer, there are no guarantees the treatment will work - even in this case, the argument was the drugs could 'potentially' cure him. With a child, a parent had to make that decision. Calling this attempted murder is horribly wrong.

So do parents no longer have the right to decide what treatment their children do and do not receive? At what point are we told, do what the doctor says, or else? We are mad at insurance companies for refusing high cost treatments if the added life time is 6 months or less, but now we are allowing a doctor, and believe me, each makes different medical JUDGMENT decisions, to convict this woman of murder because she didn't agree with his treatment plan? And if the child died from side effects of the chemo medicine, would the doctor have been charged? How about if the patient dies from an infection because they are weak (happens every day) - who goes to jail?

Every day, in cancer centers around the country, there are patients refusing potentially curative treatments because they do not want to bear the side effects and financial costs. There are also patients who will see no benefit from chemotherapy, and it might even potentially harm them and shorten their lives, but they demand it and the doctors give it to them. Who has the right to make these decisions? As a parent, I sure don't want to be required to follow the doc's instructions, no matter what I decide.

And is it karma that the dad did nothing to help out during this boy's short life, other than fight the mother for custody when she wouldn't give more treatments, and then promptly put him in hospice so he still didn't have to deal with it, and then he was killed a few months later?

I did learn something from this story. If a mom tries to kill her kid then the father finally has a shot at custody.
 






I think you need to contact her lawyer and ask WHY the hell didn't he/she use that argument.....the jury obviously went on emotion rather than rationalization.
 






  • ~T~   Apr 14, 2011 at 09:00: PM
Nice post SPN. Medical ethics questions abound here. And DD, I'm hoping the defense brings in some big guns to help with an appeal. This woman is being railroaded. I've read a bunch of the other articles out there that had a bit more info than your link provided. The mom purposely mislead doctors into thinking she was providing treatment. She outright lied about it apparently. What I want to know is..why? Her kid--her decision, imo. Why did she feel the need to conceal? These actions were wrong and showed very poor judgment but still do not rise to the level of attempted murder imo. It's not like she upped his meds in an attempt to off him. Child endangerment..maybe, but I'm not even sure about that now. She gets sentenced tomorrow morning. What possible purpose will prison serve? What a tragic,tragic story.
 






Nice post SPN. Medical ethics questions abound here. And DD, I'm hoping the defense brings in some big guns to help with an appeal. This woman is being railroaded. I've read a bunch of the other articles out there that had a bit more info than your link provided. The mom purposely mislead doctors into thinking she was providing treatment. She outright lied about it apparently. What I want to know is..why? Her kid--her decision, imo. Why did she feel the need to conceal? These actions were wrong and showed very poor judgment but still do not rise to the level of attempted murder imo. It's not like she upped his meds in an attempt to off him. Child endangerment..maybe, but I'm not even sure about that now. She gets sentenced tomorrow morning. What possible purpose will prison serve? What a tragic,tragic story.

I don't know why she hid her decision from the docs. Bitter divorce, custody battle, husband and doctor telling her she's wrong, guilt, her mental status, uncertainty in her decision as a mom vs the "experts" ? Who knows. I agree with you on her being railroaded. Her lawyer's statements show they were totally clueless. I think she was only found guilty because the jury couldn't understand why she hid her decision from the doctors.

BTW, the prosecutors claimed the boy died because of a secondary leukemia that they claim developed because she withheld treatment. Odd that the defense didn't seem to know this exact same leukemia is often a secondary cancer that develops BECAUSE of the treatment! So who can prove what killed the child?
 
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  • ~T~   Apr 15, 2011 at 09:16: AM
My thoughts exactly SPN. It'll be interesting to read about her sentencing. Bet she gets 10 years. But I do think (hope, rather) any sentence will be overturned on appeal and they'll be some precedents set.

Regarding side effects to chemo..they're bad and it's a totally individual response as I'm sure you know. Some people have cast iron stomachs/constitutions and can handle a lot. Others are just bowled under. But too, it depends on why they're getting it and for what. Doses are tailored and much of chemo today, I believe, is a targeted therapy. Formally certified in it years ago and haven't kept up on it. My sister has been an onc nurse for 25 years. I digress. Anyhow, so this Mom really should have spoken up to the doctors treating her kid and things could have been adjusted to lessen whatever the kid was experiencing. But you can't punish ignorance imo.

Only 10 short years ago, chemo was more of a shotgun approach. My other sister died of inflammatory breast cancer in early 2002. She really went down due to side effects of chemo. Severe nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration, skin reactions and finally a heart attack. The MI didn't kill her. Her liver finally shut down, ammonia built up, and she died in what we hoped was a painless sleep. I took off work and cared for her daily for the final 3 months of her life. I remember traveling 2 hours just to find samples of Zofran for her. I think when it came out it was $300 a pill (I'm kidding but it was damn expensive when first approved). She had lost her job just before finding out about the breast cancer and had no health insurance. Zofran was the only drug that helped with her severe nausea (thank you GSK).
 
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Why is it that when women commit a crime other women want to find a reason for the behavior instead of just admitting that the person is bad?

"She didn't have time for herself"
"Her ex was a jerk"
"She couldn't stand to see him sick"

We got women killing their husbands all the time and barely serving time. Remember that woman in Tennessee who killed her preacher husband because he made her wear a wig and heels? 18 months. They find her at the beach w/ her kids. It seems trendy now for moms to drive their kids into lakes. (or take their lives another way)

Screw this lady. I hope the inmates take care of her in prison. You wanted equality, well the heart attacks and jail time come w/ it.

Let's get this straight right now. Just because you have the right to kill a baby inside of you doesn't give you the right to kill one outside of you.
 






News Flash: Anyone caring for someone ill has NO time. There should be a support system or the person will go down the tubes too. No one can stand to see a loved one sick especially a child. My son went through liver failure at one point when he was eight and it was horrible. He lost 1/3 of his body weight. I would have to drive around the block and cry just so he would not see me upset. No one should judge how hard it is to see your own child suffer. This women needed a break and ALL of OUR ex's are JERKS! There are few and far in between that say they like their ex. Where was this idiot while his kid was sick? T or SPN noted the woman out and out lied about giving her kid the prescribed medication. Well, that's intent. She knew what she was doing was wrong or could appear wrong. What a horror story. To me it is proof that our end of life care sucks, there are few resources for support and Hospice only steps in at the end. I think this would not be a story had the mom gotten some support and a break. I partially blame the dad. I don't care if you are divorced. If your kid is dying, you are there.
 
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  • ~T~   Apr 15, 2011 at 11:51: AM
Right on GG.

Palepony, I guess you'll be happy to hear the mom got 8-10 years.
 






Why is it that when women commit a crime other women want to find a reason for the behavior instead of just admitting that the person is bad?

"She didn't have time for herself"
"Her ex was a jerk"
"She couldn't stand to see him sick"

We got women killing their husbands all the time and barely serving time. Remember that woman in Tennessee who killed her preacher husband because he made her wear a wig and heels? 18 months. They find her at the beach w/ her kids. It seems trendy now for moms to drive their kids into lakes. (or take their lives another way)

Screw this lady. I hope the inmates take care of her in prison. You wanted equality, well the heart attacks and jail time come w/ it.

Let's get this straight right now. Just because you have the right to kill a baby inside of you doesn't give you the right to kill one outside of you.

Why is it a crime when a parent chooses to not treat but not a crime if you choose no treatment for yourself? Where are parent's rights?
 






My thoughts exactly SPN. It'll be interesting to read about her sentencing. Bet she gets 10 years. But I do think (hope, rather) any sentence will be overturned on appeal and they'll be some precedents set.

Regarding side effects to chemo..they're bad and it's a totally individual response as I'm sure you know. Some people have cast iron stomachs/constitutions and can handle a lot. Others are just bowled under. But too, it depends on why they're getting it and for what. Doses are tailored and much of chemo today, I believe, is a targeted therapy. Formally certified in it years ago and haven't kept up on it. My sister has been an onc nurse for 25 years. I digress. Anyhow, so this Mom really should have spoken up to the doctors treating her kid and things could have been adjusted to lessen whatever the kid was experiencing. But you can't punish ignorance imo.

Only 10 short years ago, chemo was more of a shotgun approach. My other sister died of inflammatory breast cancer in early 2002. She really went down due to side effects of chemo. Severe nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration, skin reactions and finally a heart attack. The MI didn't kill her. Her liver finally shut down, ammonia built up, and she died in what we hoped was a painless sleep. I took off work and cared for her daily for the final 3 months of her life. I remember traveling 2 hours just to find samples of Zofran for her. I think when it came out it was $300 a pill (I'm kidding but it was damn expensive when first approved). She had lost her job just before finding out about the breast cancer and had no health insurance. Zofran was the only drug that helped with her severe nausea (thank you GSK).

Very, very sorry to hear about your sister. Zofran's original price was $20 a tablet that was taken 3 times a day so her prescription could easily have been $300 but not per pill. BTW, it was just Glaxo then, not the mess that followed with mergers with Wellcome and the disaster of SmithKline. It's too bad the doctors didn't help her more - without a job and insurance she should have easily qualified for free drugs. Too many patients who qualify are never identified and helped. Inflammatory breast is still a bad actor with little progress compared to other breast cancers. I hope you are religious in you own monitoring!
 






News Flash: Anyone caring for someone ill has NO time. There should be a support system or the person will go down the tubes too. No one can stand to see a loved one sick especially a child. My son went through liver failure at one point when he was eight and it was horrible. He lost 1/3 of his body weight. I would have to drive around the block and cry just so he would not see me upset. No one should judge how hard it is to see your own child suffer. This women needed a break and ALL of OUR ex's are JERKS! There are few and far in between that say they like their ex. Where was this idiot while his kid was sick? T or SPN noted the woman out and out lied about giving her kid the prescribed medication. Well, that's intent. She knew what she was doing was wrong or could appear wrong. What a horror story. To me it is proof that our end of life care sucks, there are few resources for support and Hospice only steps in at the end. I think this would not be a story had the mom gotten some support and a break. I partially blame the dad. I don't care if you are divorced. If your kid is dying, you are there.

I wasn't at the trial so can't make the leap that lying was intent, but that seems to be what the jury concluded. I know many, many, otherwise educated people who tell the doctors what they want to hear regarding compliance to taking their medications. In a bitter divorce with the husband challenging her every move, I can also see a desire to hide her decision to not deal with the inevitable flak.

Think of this child, nonverbal, in diapers, unable to understand or communicate. There are statements that the child was growing very fearful and was in misery with this treatment. The doctor said the cancer is in remission so you don't understand why treatment continues. Could you keep doing this to your child? I can't really answer for myself because I know enough about cancer but if I thought the cancer was beat and this was just extra measures, no way I could do it. Heck, I was a mess for days after an ER visit getting my youngest stiches when she was 9 months old. They strapped her to a board and sedated her but she screamed the entire time anyway and has hated doctors and needles ever since, to the point she is almost petrified of them. At 20, I still go with her to visits. We treat our pets better.
 
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She probably thought if she TOLD them she wasn't giving him the medication, they would arrest her or take him away from her. I think I'd be depressed too if there wasn't a support group, ie, family or friends, to help out. And let's face it folks, how many of us would actually volunteer to take care of someone else's child who is autistic to the degree this child was? Unless we have one ourself, and know the routine and how to handle them, we would be crazy to assume the responsibility. Babysitters for an evening out just aren't out there. The more I read about this tragedy, the more I'm outraged at the community of "professionals" she had to rely on. THEY should be put on trial too.

This is a clear example of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".