PharmD's are not doctors!

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No the correct translation is: you are a pinhead. The only reason you went to pharmacy school is because you did not have the required intelligence, intellecutual curiosity and grades to pursue a legitmate doctoral degree i.e. MD, DO or life science Ph.D. Thus, the only options available to you and your illiterate doctor wannbe colleagues were optometry or pharmacy. I don't mean to insult optometrists as their course of study is much more rigorous that pharmacy.

I will admit that I worked with a few very good PharmDs who were fairly knowledgable. However the vast majority are graduates of second rate programs that grant worthless degrees to anyone who can afford the tuition.
 




Anonymous said:
No the correct translation is: you are a pinhead. The only reason you went to pharmacy school is because you did not have the required intelligence, intellecutual curiosity and grades to pursue a legitmate doctoral degree i.e. MD, DO or life science Ph.D. Thus, the only options available to you and your illiterate doctor wannbe colleagues were optometry or pharmacy. I don't mean to insult optometrists as their course of study is much more rigorous that pharmacy.

I will admit that I worked with a few very good PharmDs who were fairly knowledgable. However the vast majority are graduates of second rate programs that grant worthless degrees to anyone who can afford the tuition.
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Obviously you did not major in composition or writing. The misspellings, bad grammar and incoherency of your reply render your points meaningless. In other words, who are you to say what is a legitimate degree when you are unable to spell the word correctly?! Nice try.
 








Anonymous said:
Regardless of incorrect spellings and grammar, the previous poster is spot on with regard to most PharmDs.
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Based on your enormous knowledge of health care professions? I guess your Community College certified medical assistant microdegree allows you to pass judgment.

Incorrect spelling and incorrect grammar implies illiteracy. Guess your (likely) unlicensed background does not give you the ability to make that connection.
 




Anonymous said:
PharmD school harder than med school? Oh come now. You must have gone to med school in the Caribbean.

Tool!!
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It was one thing to read the previous dribble where people obviously lost touch with patient care being the most important thing. Too many egos in here. I am from the Caribbean and I am also a Pharmacist. Maybe it is the size but we form personal relationships with our patients. I have many competent friends in all areas of health care with varying degrees. I will admit you hit a nerve when you implied that out education was sub-standard and therefore easier. When i was in sec school, i was a little delinquent. After emigrating to the US, i buckled down and did my work. I graduated in the top percentile with honors. I was only there for 3 & 1/2 semesters ( 1 of which i was in an internship). I found that work easy. Every year we have medical interns from the US and Can studying here. I enjoy their company and they value their experiences.
 




Anonymous said:
No the correct translation is: you are a pinhead. The only reason you went to pharmacy school is because you did not have the required intelligence, intellecutual curiosity and grades to pursue a legitmate doctoral degree i.e. MD, DO or life science Ph.D. Thus, the only options available to you and your illiterate doctor wannbe colleagues were optometry or pharmacy. I don't mean to insult optometrists as their course of study is much more rigorous that pharmacy.

I will admit that I worked with a few very good PharmDs who were fairly knowledgable. However the vast majority are graduates of second rate programs that grant worthless degrees to anyone who can afford the tuition.
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Wow...You actually believe this. As a Pharmacist, i have corrected many MDs. We often catch mistakes the MDs have made. At the end of the day, we do what is best for the pt. To me, it is just part of the learning process. No one knows everything but when we work together... Change your way of thinking. Some people actually just love Pharmacy! That is why its a health care team. You have actually made me leave this forum.
 




Anonymous said:
Wow...You actually believe this. As a Pharmacist, i have corrected many MDs. We often catch mistakes the MDs have made. At the end of the day, we do what is best for the pt. To me, it is just part of the learning process. No one knows everything but when we work together... Change your way of thinking. Some people actually just love Pharmacy! That is why its a health care team. You have actually made me leave this forum.
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Again, any mistake you caught was due to a computer catching it and you reading it! You are not licensed to diagnose or treat. You are licensed to dispense prescription drugs and council patients on how to administer the drug and what AE’s to look for. Sure, you are part of the “medical team”, just like the janitor who sterilizes the OR is a part of the medical team. Congratulations. In this day and age if you can count by fives, keep the tech’s from stealing CIII’s, and you can operate a computer, you too can be a retail pharmacists.
 




Anonymous said:
Again, any mistake you caught was due to a computer catching it and you reading it! You are not licensed to diagnose or treat. You are licensed to dispense prescription drugs and council patients on how to administer the drug and what AE’s to look for. Sure, you are part of the “medical team”, just like the janitor who sterilizes the OR is a part of the medical team. Congratulations. In this day and age if you can count by fives, keep the tech’s from stealing CIII’s, and you can operate a computer, you too can be a retail pharmacists.
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When you go off your Lithium, you refuse to use spell checking, right?
 








The bottom line is you as a PharmD are not licensed to diagnose or treat and subsequently your pay structure reflects it.

If what you say is true, that the Pharmacist is a valuable piece of the medical team, than why are you not compensated as such?

Most specialty reps make more money than a hospital or retail pharmacist or a PharmD MSL, so you can’t be valued all that much…


Starting Salary
The starting salary for pharmacists in 2009 was about $81,000 annually, with an increase to about $89,000 with five years experience.
General Range
About 80 percent of pharmacists were making between $77,000 and $131,000 in 2008. Narrowing it further, the middle 50 percent were earning between $92,000 and $121,000.

Average Salary
Average salary for all pharmacists in 2008 was about $50 hourly, or $104,000 annually.

Considerations
Pharmacists in hospitals and other institutional settings earned an average of $5,000 more annually than those working in retail.
 




Anonymous said:
The bottom line is you as a PharmD are not licensed to diagnose or treat and subsequently your pay structure reflects it.

If what you say is true, that the Pharmacist is a valuable piece of the medical team, than why are you not compensated as such?

Most specialty reps make more money than a hospital or retail pharmacist or a PharmD MSL, so you can’t be valued all that much…


Starting Salary
The starting salary for pharmacists in 2009 was about $81,000 annually, with an increase to about $89,000 with five years experience.
General Range
About 80 percent of pharmacists were making between $77,000 and $131,000 in 2008. Narrowing it further, the middle 50 percent were earning between $92,000 and $121,000.

Average Salary
Average salary for all pharmacists in 2008 was about $50 hourly, or $104,000 annually.

Considerations
Pharmacists in hospitals and other institutional settings earned an average of $5,000 more annually than those working in retail.
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You do not provide a reference for your information. Please provide a link.

Your argument has several flaws. In several states, nurse practitioners have independent authority to diagnose and treat within the limits of their licenses the same as physicians, dentists, podiatrists and others. Nurse practitioners, excluding CRNAs, are not paid at the same level as pharmacists if you use the average pay ranges from a given www.indeed.com job search using "nurse practitioner" as the primary search term. Physician assistants are also licensed to diagnose and treat, but they are dependent professionals who also are not paid at the same level as pharmacists. Pharmacist compensation is determined by relative market forces the same as any other profession.

Directly comparing the total compensation of a sales representative (who has more incentive programs) to a practicing pharmacist (with fewer incentive programs) and MSLs (who cannot be paid based on sales per FDA DDMAC guidelines in the 2003 OIG publication) means nothing. Industry sales reps are doing just that--selling a product--and their compensation varies widely depending on their results. In a professional practice situation, pharmacists are not compensated to sell specific products unless in retail.

Dispensing medications is treating patients, according to all of the professional practice standards and laws governing pharmacy and its relationship with authorized prescribers. Sales representatives do not diagnose or treat anything, except their fragile egos and dwindling bank accounts when they do not make their sales quotas.

If your are so crucial to the health care system, why don't you work for Obama as Secretary of HHS?
 




Anonymous said:
You do not provide a reference for your information. Please provide a link.

Your argument has several flaws. In several states, nurse practitioners have independent authority to diagnose and treat within the limits of their licenses the same as physicians, dentists, podiatrists and others. Nurse practitioners, excluding CRNAs, are not paid at the same level as pharmacists if you use the average pay ranges from a given www.indeed.com job search using "nurse practitioner" as the primary search term. Physician assistants are also licensed to diagnose and treat, but they are dependent professionals who also are not paid at the same level as pharmacists. Pharmacist compensation is determined by relative market forces the same as any other profession.

Directly comparing the total compensation of a sales representative (who has more incentive programs) to a practicing pharmacist (with fewer incentive programs) and MSLs (who cannot be paid based on sales per FDA DDMAC guidelines in the 2003 OIG publication) means nothing. Industry sales reps are doing just that--selling a product--and their compensation varies widely depending on their results. In a professional practice situation, pharmacists are not compensated to sell specific products unless in retail.

Dispensing medications is treating patients, according to all of the professional practice standards and laws governing pharmacy and its relationship with authorized prescribers. Sales representatives do not diagnose or treat anything, except their fragile egos and dwindling bank accounts when they do not make their sales quotas.

If your are so crucial to the health care system, why don't you work for Obama as Secretary of HHS?
Click to expand...

Well add ‘not getting into law school as another reason to become a pharmacist’. First you just made my case that even with your “doctorate level degree” you have less impact on patient care than a NP or PA who do not have “doctorate degrees”. They can actually prescribe drugs…you can only dispense them! The salaries for PA’s, NP’s and Pharmacists varies widely and like you said all are determined by market forces, but on average you all make in the same ballpark. I know oncology PA’s who make a lot more than the pharmacists mixing chemo at their cancer center. Second, dispensing and “providing council” in not “treating” patients, by any standard. If we use your logic the check-out person at a grocery store who “dispenses” OTC Prilosec, and casually says, “have you tried this before,” is “treating” patients. You are merely handing over a bottle with two pages of instructions and asking “have you been on this before”? Wow! Yup that has the same impact of what a NP or a PA has with a patient!!!

Yes you make slightly more than a PA or NP on average but there is plenty of overlap from the low to high. So again you proved my point that if your median earnings are only $20K(see websites below) higher than HCP’s who DO NOT have “doctorate” level degrees clearly your role and your “doctorate” degree is not all that valued or it is only valued at a $20K premium! That sure is not a good ROI!


Base vs. incentive is irrelevant. Each job has a targeted ‘total compensation’ goal whether that is from base, bonus, commission, etc. MSL’s get bonuses based on MBO’s, retail pharmacist get bonuses based on store success. I have worked at more companies where the pharmD MSL move or want to move into sales so they can make more money. If your PharmD was viewed as being valuable you would be paid commensurately.

I never said Sales reps diagnose or treat nor did I say they are crucial to the healthcare system, but if you want to split hairs reps do provide samples to doctors ie., dispense prescription drugs, and they provide patient education and support, ie., council. So I guess it’s funny that the government requires you to have a “doctorate” degree and be licensed to dispense and council, but a non “doctorate” degree sample rep can carry and distribute prescription drugs and can provide council to physicians and educational support to patients.

Q: “If your are so crucial to the health care system, why don't you work for Obama as Secretary of HHS”?
A: I wouldn’t want to take a paycut.

Earnings support:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos079.htm - PharmD

PA http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm
 




Anonymous said:
Well add ‘not getting into law school as another reason to become a pharmacist’. First you just made my case that even with your “doctorate level degree” you have less impact on patient care than a NP or PA who do not have “doctorate degrees”. They can actually prescribe drugs…you can only dispense them! The salaries for PA’s, NP’s and Pharmacists varies widely and like you said all are determined by market forces, but on average you all make in the same ballpark. I know oncology PA’s who make a lot more than the pharmacists mixing chemo at their cancer center. Second, dispensing and “providing council” in not “treating” patients, by any standard. If we use your logic the check-out person at a grocery store who “dispenses” OTC Prilosec, and casually says, “have you tried this before,” is “treating” patients. You are merely handing over a bottle with two pages of instructions and asking “have you been on this before”? Wow! Yup that has the same impact of what a NP or a PA has with a patient!!!

Yes you make slightly more than a PA or NP on average but there is plenty of overlap from the low to high. So again you proved my point that if your median earnings are only $20K(see websites below) higher than HCP’s who DO NOT have “doctorate” level degrees clearly your role and your “doctorate” degree is not all that valued or it is only valued at a $20K premium! That sure is not a good ROI!


Base vs. incentive is irrelevant. Each job has a targeted ‘total compensation’ goal whether that is from base, bonus, commission, etc. MSL’s get bonuses based on MBO’s, retail pharmacist get bonuses based on store success. I have worked at more companies where the pharmD MSL move or want to move into sales so they can make more money. If your PharmD was viewed as being valuable you would be paid commensurately.

I never said Sales reps diagnose or treat nor did I say they are crucial to the healthcare system, but if you want to split hairs reps do provide samples to doctors ie., dispense prescription drugs, and they provide patient education and support, ie., council. So I guess it’s funny that the government requires you to have a “doctorate” degree and be licensed to dispense and council, but a non “doctorate” degree sample rep can carry and distribute prescription drugs and can provide council to physicians and educational support to patients.

Q: “If your are so crucial to the health care system, why don't you work for Obama as Secretary of HHS”?
A: I wouldn’t want to take a paycut.

Earnings support:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos079.htm - PharmD

PA http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm
Click to expand...

This may be the biggest and most accurate bitch slap to “PharmD’s” I have ever read. The numbers do not lie…Keep counting by fives and keep the paper and printer cartridge full, and try not to molest your HS Pharm Tech’s you losers…
 




I knew a couple of girls who drank VERY heavily at least 4 nights a week during their last year of PharmD school. That tells me volumes about how rigorous the curriculum was and how mentally alert they needed to be.

When people constantly argue they should be addressed as doctor, but there is overwhelming anecdotal evidence they don't deserve to be addressed as such, game-over.
 




Anonymous said:
Well add ‘not getting into law school as another reason to become a pharmacist’. First you just made my case that even with your “doctorate level degree” you have less impact on patient care than a NP or PA who do not have “doctorate degrees”. They can actually prescribe drugs…you can only dispense them! The salaries for PA’s, NP’s and Pharmacists varies widely and like you said all are determined by market forces, but on average you all make in the same ballpark. I know oncology PA’s who make a lot more than the pharmacists mixing chemo at their cancer center. Second, dispensing and “providing council” in not “treating” patients, by any standard. If we use your logic the check-out person at a grocery store who “dispenses” OTC Prilosec, and casually says, “have you tried this before,” is “treating” patients. You are merely handing over a bottle with two pages of instructions and asking “have you been on this before”? Wow! Yup that has the same impact of what a NP or a PA has with a patient!!!

Yes you make slightly more than a PA or NP on average but there is plenty of overlap from the low to high. So again you proved my point that if your median earnings are only $20K(see websites below) higher than HCP’s who DO NOT have “doctorate” level degrees clearly your role and your “doctorate” degree is not all that valued or it is only valued at a $20K premium! That sure is not a good ROI!


Base vs. incentive is irrelevant. Each job has a targeted ‘total compensation’ goal whether that is from base, bonus, commission, etc. MSL’s get bonuses based on MBO’s, retail pharmacist get bonuses based on store success. I have worked at more companies where the pharmD MSL move or want to move into sales so they can make more money. If your PharmD was viewed as being valuable you would be paid commensurately.

I never said Sales reps diagnose or treat nor did I say they are crucial to the healthcare system, but if you want to split hairs reps do provide samples to doctors ie., dispense prescription drugs, and they provide patient education and support, ie., council. So I guess it’s funny that the government requires you to have a “doctorate” degree and be licensed to dispense and council, but a non “doctorate” degree sample rep can carry and distribute prescription drugs and can provide council to physicians and educational support to patients.

Q: “If your are so crucial to the health care system, why don't you work for Obama as Secretary of HHS”?
A: I wouldn’t want to take a paycut.

Earnings support:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos079.htm - PharmD

PA http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm
Click to expand...

Dear Illiterate Sales Rep:

The term is "counsel", not "council". We know now that you did not major in composition or writing. Maybe that is why you did not get into law school.

More recent pharmacist income data can be seen at http://www.pharmacyweek.com/job_seeker/salary/salary.asp?article_id=13666&etp=0 - this is generally considered to be the most current information.

Since when are sales reps so "crucial" to the health care system? Would that be reflected by the massive layoffs in the sales and marketing areas of every major pharmaceutical company? You provide lunch and sign out samples. You complain about the window witch and moan that your manager has to do ride-alongs because you are on a PIP like everyone else in your POD or on your team.

PAs can prescribe, but they have to be supervised and all of their diagnoses signed off by a licensed physician. In reality, they have no independent authority. Nurse practitioners are working immediate care clinics in CVS precisely to generate prescription revenue just like retail pharmacists.

Have to laugh when repbots or non-industry folks whine and complain that they can't be called "doctor" when they have not earned the degree. Considering how long you have harped on the issue, you are probably not even in industry.

As to the "slap down" poster, just remember that a pharmacist with a clean license and record will always be employed. You, on the other hand, will probably be laid off and passing out the carts at Wal Mart. Same goes for the repbot.
 




Anonymous said:
Dear Illiterate Sales Rep:

The term is "counsel", not "council". We know now that you did not major in composition or writing. Maybe that is why you did not get into law school.

More recent pharmacist income data can be seen at http://www.pharmacyweek.com/job_seeker/salary/salary.asp?article_id=13666&etp=0 - this is generally considered to be the most current information.

Since when are sales reps so "crucial" to the health care system? Would that be reflected by the massive layoffs in the sales and marketing areas of every major pharmaceutical company? You provide lunch and sign out samples. You complain about the window witch and moan that your manager has to do ride-alongs because you are on a PIP like everyone else in your POD or on your team.

PAs can prescribe, but they have to be supervised and all of their diagnoses signed off by a licensed physician. In reality, they have no independent authority. Nurse practitioners are working immediate care clinics in CVS precisely to generate prescription revenue just like retail pharmacists.

Have to laugh when repbots or non-industry folks whine and complain that they can't be called "doctor" when they have not earned the degree. Considering how long you have harped on the issue, you are probably not even in industry.

As to the "slap down" poster, just remember that a pharmacist with a clean license and record will always be employed. You, on the other hand, will probably be laid off and passing out the carts at Wal Mart. Same goes for the repbot.
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First I never sampled a drug in my career. Second I forgot more about oncology agents that you ever learned. Third, the salary info you posted was pretty much in line with what I posted from the labor board, so I’m not sure what point you were trying to make. Fourth, there are far more sales job vacancies in the country than there are pharmacist jobs, as we are not prisoners to this industry, we can leave and go sell something else. Fifth is reading comprehension not your thing? I stated that reps are NOT crucial to the health care system…nor are pharmacists. Reps are at least crucial to something and that is improving the bottom line for the companies who employee them. Fifth, sure there have been layoffs but that is a good thing since the industry got bloated in the 1990’s and now is corrected to a more realistic size, especially with all the M&A’s, and patent expirations – again I know business acumen is a foreign concept to you. BTW plenty of PharmD MSL’s were laid off in the past 5+ years let us not forget.

Whether a PA or a NP is supervised is irrelevant. They are treating patients! They are healthcare providers. You, Mr. Pharmacist, are simply filling a bottle with pills and handing a patient a printout – again pretty much what a sample rep is legally allowed to do. Oh I take that back you are actually just watching a tech filling the bottle and handing the patient the printout.

There may not always be a need for “drug reps”, but there will always be sales jobs in a multitude of industries…not sure I would say the same for guys who know how to count by fives…Really if someone goes home and has an AE to a drug who do they call…the pharmacy or their doctor’s office…
 








Anonymous said:
Sounds like the Repbot is jealous his BA in Phys ED is not holding up in life.

You smoke pole, rep.
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First of the B movies of the 1980’s are calling and they want their “smoking pole” line back. Seriously, that’s what you roll with?…”rep bot” and “smoking pole” smack? Let’s add lack of a sense of humor to the skill set that PharmD’s do not have.

OK just for sh*ts and giggles, let’s use your inference for a second on the Phys Ed BA point. Let’s just say that ALL drugs reps have that degree. What does that say about you Mr. PharmD that on average said rep makes more money that you? Clearly you are either vastly undervalued or everyone gets that you basically count pills and inappropriately fondle High School aged tech’s for a living. Learning classes of drugs and counting by fives will never garner what the highest paid drug rep earns. Like I said before, I’ve been an oncology rep and manger for 17 years and I’ve never W2’d less than $200K a year, plus a car, plus a stock option, plus well you get the point Walgreens. What do you earn again? Like it or not, his is a world of money talking and BS running a marathon…And all I’ve read on this board is esoteric reasons of why PhamrD’s should even exists. At the end of the day if a drug company had the choice of retaining a PharmD who produces zero revenue or a rep who brings in revenue, which one do you thing the shareholder will choose…?
 




A family member of mine just finished the Pharm D program and grad. with honors...she now writes her name as: Dr. Ann Douglas, so since she uses the prefix legally I guess that says it all!!!!
 




Anonymous said:
A family member of mine just finished the Pharm D program and grad. with honors...she now writes her name as: Dr. Ann Douglas, so since she uses the prefix legally I guess that says it all!!!!
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By husband has a JD and he does not sign his name Dr.. Attorney would laugh their asses off if one of their peers started calling themselves Dr.!!! Pharmacy schools have been promoting this “PharmD” degree as a doctoral level program so that is why you are hearing more and more noise around it. I know plenty of people who have their doctorate degree who do not address themselves as Dr. Soandso. I have no problem with a PharmD calling themselves doctor as it really only makes them look foolish when they get asked “what specialty are you”? And they say “I’m a pharmacist”, which bring about the most commonly heard reply, “Oh I thought you said you were a doctor…but really you’re just a pharmacist”…

At the end of the day in a healthcare setting Dr. should be reserved for MD’s and DO’s. You know…the people who are actually Doctors…
 




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