<5% Market Share

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Anonymous

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Why would an implanting physician implant a biotronic device? If that technology was so good you would think that their market share would be 10% or so.

"Research" AKA CASH.

When a patient signs the consent and agrees to be enrolled in this clinical trial are they informed of how much money the physician receives? Are they ever told that the implanter is getting paid? Does the implanter ever mention that they will have a device that in most states only has 1 or 2 clinical people to interrogate it?

I guess the extra $2,000 - 4,000 for the implanter helps him deal with conscience.

Can anyone recall an EP who implants Biotronic ever actually implanting one in his family member?
 












Anonymous said:
Why would an implanting physician implant a biotronic device? If that technology was so good you would think that their market share would be 10% or so.

"Research" AKA CASH.

When a patient signs the consent and agrees to be enrolled in this clinical trial are they informed of how much money the physician receives? Are they ever told that the implanter is getting paid? Does the implanter ever mention that they will have a device that in most states only has 1 or 2 clinical people to interrogate it?

I guess the extra $2,000 - 4,000 for the implanter helps him deal with conscience.

Can anyone recall an EP who implants Biotronic ever actually implanting one in his family member?
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, it is getting easier to be heard as a Biotronik Rep...thanks mostly to companies like yours.
 












Anonymous said:
Why would an implanting physician implant a biotronic device? If that technology was so good you would think that their market share would be 10% or so.

"Research" AKA CASH.

When a patient signs the consent and agrees to be enrolled in this clinical trial are they informed of how much money the physician receives? Are they ever told that the implanter is getting paid? Does the implanter ever mention that they will have a device that in most states only has 1 or 2 clinical people to interrogate it?

I guess the extra $2,000 - 4,000 for the implanter helps him deal with conscience.

Can anyone recall an EP who implants Biotronic ever actually implanting one in his family member?
Click to expand...

Bio does not have 10% market share before there are still a lot of old codgers that use MDT and BSX regardless of their recalls and forceful business practices over the years. They were trained years ago with MDT and BSX. MDT and BSX has provided blanket coverage for them and their practices for years so they are loyal to a fault.

If you really think that the "extra $2,000 - $4,000" per implant is happening fine... believe it. It doesn't happen any more or less with BIO then it does with MDT, BSX or STJ. Be very careful throwing stones when you live in glass houses.

Yes, in fact I can recall a Sprint Fidellis coming out and a Biotronik Linox with a Sorin ICD going back in. Yep, a Sorin can - go figure. Why did this happen? Because our local MDT rep got tired of MDT's shit and left and he actually pulled the business with him which is hard to believe but he did it.

So, the pedestal that you are perched on is high. Be very careful, the fall is far and the landing is hard. Anyway, what is your point about market share? Who really cares? At the local level, a rep regardless of who he works for could care less about national market share percentages. If they have 15%, 30% of 70% of the local share and their company has 5% or 40% what difference does it really make?
 






Anonymous said:
Bio does not have 10% market share before there are still a lot of old codgers that use MDT and BSX regardless of their recalls and forceful business practices over the years. They were trained years ago with MDT and BSX. MDT and BSX has provided blanket coverage for them and their practices for years so they are loyal to a fault.

If you really think that the "extra $2,000 - $4,000" per implant is happening fine... believe it. It doesn't happen any more or less with BIO then it does with MDT, BSX or STJ. Be very careful throwing stones when you live in glass houses.

Yes, in fact I can recall a Sprint Fidellis coming out and a Biotronik Linox with a Sorin ICD going back in. Yep, a Sorin can - go figure. Why did this happen? Because our local MDT rep got tired of MDT's shit and left and he actually pulled the business with him which is hard to believe but he did it.

So, the pedestal that you are perched on is high. Be very careful, the fall is far and the landing is hard. Anyway, what is your point about market share? Who really cares? At the local level, a rep regardless of who he works for could care less about national market share percentages. If they have 15%, 30% of 70% of the local share and their company has 5% or 40% what difference does it really make?
Click to expand...

"At the local level, a rep regardless of who he works for could care less about national market share percentages. If they have 15%, 30% of 70% of the local share and their company has 5% or 40% what difference does it really make?"

Thank you! I never see this point being made. The only time it should matter is when the national performance drives the company to start RIFFing, other than that who cares but managers, executives and Wall Street.

Call me myopic or parochial, but if it doesn't impact my paycheck then its probably way beyond my realm of control...so you just have to let that stuff go.
 






Anonymous said:
Bio does not have 10% market share before there are still a lot of old codgers that use MDT and BSX regardless of their recalls and forceful business practices over the years. They were trained years ago with MDT and BSX. MDT and BSX has provided blanket coverage for them and their practices for years so they are loyal to a fault.

If you really think that the "extra $2,000 - $4,000" per implant is happening fine... believe it. It doesn't happen any more or less with BIO then it does with MDT, BSX or STJ. Be very careful throwing stones when you live in glass houses.

Yes, in fact I can recall a Sprint Fidellis coming out and a Biotronik Linox with a Sorin ICD going back in. Yep, a Sorin can - go figure. Why did this happen? Because our local MDT rep got tired of MDT's shit and left and he actually pulled the business with him which is hard to believe but he did it.

So, the pedestal that you are perched on is high. Be very careful, the fall is far and the landing is hard. Anyway, what is your point about market share? Who really cares? At the local level, a rep regardless of who he works for could care less about national market share percentages. If they have 15%, 30% of 70% of the local share and their company has 5% or 40% what difference does it really make?
Click to expand...

1 point for this guy! He has a point.
 






Anonymous said:
"At the local level, a rep regardless of who he works for could care less about national market share percentages. If they have 15%, 30% of 70% of the local share and their company has 5% or 40% what difference does it really make?"

Thank you! I never see this point being made. The only time it should matter is when the national performance drives the company to start RIFFing, other than that who cares but managers, executives and Wall Street.

Call me myopic or parochial, but if it doesn't impact my paycheck then its probably way beyond my realm of control...so you just have to let that stuff go.
Click to expand...

I agree, I couldn't care less what logo is up there in the top left hand corner of my paycheck. As long as I am getting my job done and I have a certain quality of life with some balance to work and family... I am good. Do I want to help push the company forward? Certainly! I am as competitive as anyone but, my company's national market share doesn't mean squat to me. Is what matters to me is listening to my competitors whine.
 






Anonymous said:
Why would an implanting physician implant a biotronic device? If that technology was so good you would think that their market share would be 10% or so.

"Research" AKA CASH.

When a patient signs the consent and agrees to be enrolled in this clinical trial are they informed of how much money the physician receives? Are they ever told that the implanter is getting paid? Does the implanter ever mention that they will have a device that in most states only has 1 or 2 clinical people to interrogate it?

I guess the extra $2,000 - 4,000 for the implanter helps him deal with conscience.

Can anyone recall an EP who implants Biotronic ever actually implanting one in his family member?
Click to expand...

Isn't Tommy Lasorda a national spokesman for Biotronik? He has a device. He travels all of the world. I don't think he's too concerned about national marketshare. When he need his device checked in another state the response time was within 30 mins. To your question about implanting devices in relatives......yes, my docs implants Bio devices in their friends and family because they know that they are getting great technology, great service, and that's all that matters. MDT/STJ/BSX have all had multiple issues of late. When Bio went through the Vegas/NYT crap it was a moment for the docs to have doubt. But, now they see even more how much bs is spewd on the smaller companies. It kind of backfired on the big 3 becuz now my docs recognize CRM propaganda.

Let's focus on the Durata and that issue for now. At Bio, I'm doing fine in my little old area. Someone said to me recently, "yep, my docs are putting in stjude left and right religiously. they even replace bio gen changes with stjude." i responded, "yep, in my area we do the same with competitive gen changes. we replace them with Bio devices."

As the previous poster said, "it's all about my paycheck and quality of life". Right now, I'm loving it.
 






Anonymous said:
Why would an implanting physician implant a biotronic device? If that technology was so good you would think that their market share would be 10% or so.

"Research" AKA CASH.

When a patient signs the consent and agrees to be enrolled in this clinical trial are they informed of how much money the physician receives? Are they ever told that the implanter is getting paid? Does the implanter ever mention that they will have a device that in most states only has 1 or 2 clinical people to interrogate it?

I guess the extra $2,000 - 4,000 for the implanter helps him deal with conscience.

Can anyone recall an EP who implants Biotronic ever actually implanting one in his family member?
Click to expand...


And your point is?????
 


















Anonymous said:
this is classic. small companies can't get business on the up and up. it has to be something irregular.

gimme a break. going on 4 years now and no issues with the biotronik products. zero.
Click to expand...

Obviously, Biotronik has issues. Everyone has the onesies and twosies here and there with failures. Don't forget about the 'vented' ICD.

If you look at it, MDT has had a run of a few years w/o a significant recall and I think if we are all honest with ourselves we would say that some of what Guidant had to declare would have never have been declared if it wasn't for the bidding war between J&J and BSX. Some of what they got their hand slapped for was paperwork/filing issues. Maybe under normal circumstances that would have been quietly handled.

Like it or not Bio does seem to be running with a pretty clean track record BUT they are also a handful of years behind in most technologies and features. Bio reps have to take the good with the bad. They have a clean track record but most of their stuff is 'me too' stuff just tying to catch up with everyone else. They rarely get a leg up on the competition with a new feature or technology that they can run with for a while.
 












Since Biotronik is a private company, how does anyone know what size market share they have? Their manufacturing is at an all time high. I think they are growing from what I know of their manufacturing and inventory.
 






You can do the math.....

If CRM is a 100 billion dollar company....

and MDT earns 45 billion they have 45% share
and if BSX earn 25 billion they have 25% share
and if SYJ earns 25 billion they have 25% share
that leaves 5% unaccounted for - it belongs to BIO.

No these numbers are not exact. They are used as an example only. Market share %'s are a best guess anyway.
 






Anonymous said:
Obviously, Biotronik has issues. Everyone has the onesies and twosies here and there with failures. Don't forget about the 'vented' ICD.

If you look at it, MDT has had a run of a few years w/o a significant recall and I think if we are all honest with ourselves we would say that some of what Guidant had to declare would have never have been declared if it wasn't for the bidding war between J&J and BSX. Some of what they got their hand slapped for was paperwork/filing issues. Maybe under normal circumstances that would have been quietly handled.

Like it or not Bio does seem to be running with a pretty clean track record BUT they are also a handful of years behind in most technologies and features. Bio reps have to take the good with the bad. They have a clean track record but most of their stuff is 'me too' stuff just tying to catch up with everyone else. They rarely get a leg up on the competition with a new feature or technology that they can run with for a while.
Click to expand...

this is true to an extent. Bio does have "me too" products. but, there is nothing wrong with that if the products are good. Bio was first to market with home monitoring........meant nothing.

i remember when guidant had the intrinsic RV feature to stretch out the AV delay and prevent RV pacing. it was a mute point that fell on deaf ears until MDT came out with their version "MVP". all of a sudden preventing RV pacing was the thing to do. i've seen EP's implanting 60cc MDT BiV AICDs when they knew their was a 2nd generation GDT BiV AICD that was only 43cc's.

unlike many other physicians, EP's are loyal to a point of stupidity. even if Bio came out with a "game changer" product it would not be accepted (in my honest opinion) and I work for Bio! EP's have dug in their heels and their relationships with their local CRM reps are more important than the patient.

sorry to say........but, it's the truth
 






Anonymous said:
this is true to an extent. Bio does have "me too" products. but, there is nothing wrong with that if the products are good. Bio was first to market with home monitoring........meant nothing.

i remember when guidant had the intrinsic RV feature to stretch out the AV delay and prevent RV pacing. it was a mute point that fell on deaf ears until MDT came out with their version "MVP". all of a sudden preventing RV pacing was the thing to do. i've seen EP's implanting 60cc MDT BiV AICDs when they knew their was a 2nd generation GDT BiV AICD that was only 43cc's.

unlike many other physicians, EP's are loyal to a point of stupidity. even if Bio came out with a "game changer" product it would not be accepted (in my honest opinion) and I work for Bio! EP's have dug in their heels and their relationships with their local CRM reps are more important than the patient.

sorry to say........but, it's the truth
Click to expand...

As long as the pt is not being put at risk and they ultimately benefit from the product there is nothing wrong with these types of relationships...heck we all need something to hold on to....and as we have all learned, "smaller is not necessarily better" in terms of product. In terms of BIO market share, there is something to be said about being small in their case. The lower # of implants the lower the risk of finding a failure rate that would hit any radar. Why do larger pt study results hold more validity than a small study? Same principle.
 






Anonymous said:
this is true to an extent. Bio does have "me too" products. but, there is nothing wrong with that if the products are good. Bio was first to market with home monitoring........meant nothing.

i remember when guidant had the intrinsic RV feature to stretch out the AV delay and prevent RV pacing. it was a mute point that fell on deaf ears until MDT came out with their version "MVP". all of a sudden preventing RV pacing was the thing to do. i've seen EP's implanting 60cc MDT BiV AICDs when they knew their was a 2nd generation GDT BiV AICD that was only 43cc's.

unlike many other physicians, EP's are loyal to a point of stupidity. even if Bio came out with a "game changer" product it would not be accepted (in my honest opinion) and I work for Bio! EP's have dug in their heels and their relationships with their local CRM reps are more important than the patient.

sorry to say........but, it's the truth
Click to expand...

I do not disagree.
 






Anonymous said:
As long as the pt is not being put at risk and they ultimately benefit from the product there is nothing wrong with these types of relationships...heck we all need something to hold on to....and as we have all learned, "smaller is not necessarily better" in terms of product. In terms of BIO market share, there is something to be said about being small in their case. The lower # of implants the lower the risk of finding a failure rate that would hit any radar. Why do larger pt study results hold more validity than a small study? Same principle.
Click to expand...

Not completely true. If I recall correctly from when I worked with Bio a few years back, they had a problem with ICD batteries and/or capacitors. There were only 400ish total implants but I believe the failure rate was around 16%. A 16% percent failure rate is a 16% failure rate. You can't hide that. Bio was handed an official Class I recall.
 






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