Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Cost


Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

The study cited in the first post above proves that you didn't earn most of what you were paid since 72% of what pharma sells is unneeded so it seems that as soon as you pay that back you can complain?

If it was not "needed" then explain how it happened moron??!?! Did someone force people to use these "unneeded" meds? It must be more of these mind-control sandwiches we feed physicians.

And who exactly gets to decided what is needed? YOU.... OBAMA??? I think physicians are far more educated than you and as such, they can make educated medical decisions for their patients... Not you MORON.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

If it was not "needed" then explain how it happened moron??!?! Did someone force people to use these "unneeded" meds? It must be more of these mind-control sandwiches we feed physicians.

And who exactly gets to decided what is needed? YOU.... OBAMA??? I think physicians are far more educated than you and as such, they can make educated medical decisions for their patients... Not you MORON.

"If it was not "needed" then explain how it happened moron??!?! Did someone force people to use these "unneeded" meds? It must be more of these mind-control sandwiches we feed physicians. - Did you read the paper obviously not. It concludes that when Docs are presented the facts and not your bullshit they make the right choices. Simple, Information someone else not you = good.


"and who exactly gets to decided what is needed? YOU.... OBAMA???" - How about a scientific study published by researchers with PhDs and Board Certified MDs and published in a peer reviewed journal of the 2nd largest Organization of Specialty docs in the US? How about the FDA? I believe that they are all more qualified than you or I to decide this?

"YOU.... OBAMA??? I think physicians are far more educated than you and as such, they can make educated medical decisions for their patients... Not you MORON" No not me, not Obama as this paper only proves what happens when Docs are given the data and make a free choice. But since you asked, yes Obama and people like me ARE making the decisions on which drugs that they can buy because under Obama Care cost reforms will prevent Dr's from prescribing Branded Drugs when Generics will do.

But the fascinating part will be that, given a choice, the patient can pay the difference between a Generic Drug and a Branded one. So, if they choose to keep people like you in a job they will make the choice. I have a feeling that they are going to choose to throw your ass onto the street.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

"If it was not "needed" then explain how it happened moron??!?! Did someone force people to use these "unneeded" meds? It must be more of these mind-control sandwiches we feed physicians. - Did you read the paper obviously not. It concludes that when Docs are presented the facts and not your bullshit they make the right choices. Simple, Information someone else not you = good.


"and who exactly gets to decided what is needed? YOU.... OBAMA???" - How about a scientific study published by researchers with PhDs and Board Certified MDs and published in a peer reviewed journal of the 2nd largest Organization of Specialty docs in the US? How about the FDA? I believe that they are all more qualified than you or I to decide this?

"YOU.... OBAMA??? I think physicians are far more educated than you and as such, they can make educated medical decisions for their patients... Not you MORON" No not me, not Obama as this paper only proves what happens when Docs are given the data and make a free choice. But since you asked, yes Obama and people like me ARE making the decisions on which drugs that they can buy because under Obama Care cost reforms will prevent Dr's from prescribing Branded Drugs when Generics will do.

But the fascinating part will be that, given a choice, the patient can pay the difference between a Generic Drug and a Branded one. So, if they choose to keep people like you in a job they will make the choice. I have a feeling that they are going to choose to throw your ass onto the street.

Ironic huh? You or someone like you has repeatedly talked about "free choice" and when Dr's are given all the information needed they choose "not Pharma" and now the patients will get the choice to pay for Pharma or not.

Free Choice - niiice for everyone but YOU.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

Docs can write generics, but most feel they are not equal to name brands.

The patient can always ask for generics do not put blame on representatives, pharma or docs. Patients need to be better educated.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

Docs can write generics, but most feel they are not equal to name brands.

The patient can always ask for generics do not put blame on representatives, pharma or docs. Patients need to be better educated.

That is such a stupid statement - I hope you dont work for us. In most states and with most insurance companies generics are prescribed or dispensed by default. MD's don't give a crap unless there is a specific issue brought to their attention.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

That is such a stupid statement - I hope you dont work for us. In most states and with most insurance companies generics are prescribed or dispensed by default. MD's don't give a crap unless there is a specific issue brought to their attention.

That is not what the study found. And if that was true, why would they pay you. You push Branded drugs. Do get get credit when a Doc writes scripts for Generics?

Allow me to quote from the academically produced, scientific study published in a journal for the 2nd largets professional medical specialist is the US.

"A new report suggests that improved health care and significant reductions in drug costs might be attained by breaking up the age-old relationship between physicians and drug company representatives who promote the newest, more costly and often unnecessary prescription drugs.

This system, which has been in place for decades, at one time benefited doctors by keeping them up to date on new medications, and always provided generous amounts of "free" samples to get patients started on the newest drugs, as well as other supplies and gifts.
But it's actually a powerful marketing process into which the pharmaceutical industry pours tens of billions of dollars a year, with more than 90,000 drug representatives providing gifts and advice. There is one drug representative for every eight doctors in the United States. This doesn't necessarily serve the best interests of the patient in terms of economy, efficacy, safety or accuracy of information, experts say.

In one of the first reports of its type -- titled "Breaking Up is Hard to Do" -- researchers from Oregon State University, Oregon Health & Science University and the University of Washington outlined the deliberate process that one central Oregon medical clinic went through to remove drug company representatives from their practice. It explored the obstacles they faced and the ultimate, successful result. The findings were just published in the Journal of the American Board of Family Medicine.

Moves to separate the drug industry from the practice of medicine have been more aggressive in large medical teaching hospitals, Hartung said, but much less so in smaller private practice. Of the 800,000 physicians in the U.S., only 22 percent practice in academic settings, the study noted, and 84 percent of primary care physicians still have close relationships with the pharmaceutical industry.

The stakes can be high, the researchers said. In the study example, the "sample cabinet" of medications at the Madras clinic, provided for free by the pharmaceutical representatives, had an average price of $90 for a month's supply of the medications. Less expensive, generic medications were identified for 38 of the 46 sample drugs, which would have cost $22 a month."

Is basic reading a requirement for Pharma Reps?
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

This article uses some interesting references but before we look at some of these does anyone realize that this article as published with the tags "Ethics" and "Conflicts of Interest"?

One of the articles in the reference was from a Journal entitled "The Annals of Family Medicine".

"The Annals of Family Medicine is a new peer-reviewed research journal to meet the needs of scientists, practitioners, policymakers, and the patients and communities they serve."

Sponsoring Organizations

The Annals of Family Medicine is a collaborative effort of seven family medicine organizations:

American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP)
American Board of Family Medicine (ABFM)
Society of Teachers of Family Medicine (STFM)
Association of Departments of Family Medicine (ADFM)
Association of Family Medicine Residency Directors (AFMRD)
North American Primary Care Research Group (NAPCRG)
College of Family Physicians of Canada (CFPC)

The paper

"The Company We Keep: Why Physicians Should Refuse to See Pharmaceutical Representatives

Whether physicians ought to interact with pharmaceutical sales representatives (reps) is a question worthy of careful ethical analysis. The issue presents a challenge to both professional integrity and time management. Empirical data suggest that interactions with pharmaceutical reps increase the chances that the physician will act contrary to duties owed to the patient. Ideally, a physician might both interact with reps and also do the research necessary to counteract the commercial bias in their messages. But a physician who actually did that research would, in turn, be devoting a good deal of time that might better be spent in other activities. The counterargument, that one is obligated to see representatives to obtain free samples to best serve one’s patients, can be shown in most practice settings not to be compelling. Physicians ought to refuse to visit with representatives as a matter of both professional integrity and sensible time management."

Received for publication March 4, 2004.
Revision received March 29, 2004.
Accepted for publication May 17, 2005.
© 2005 Annals of Family Medicine, Inc.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

The generalized arguments made in these articles can be transfered to almost any industry.

It's just these authors have a bias against sales reps. big deal. Wasted paper and time.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

The generalized arguments made in these articles can be transfered to almost any industry.

It's just these authors have a bias against sales reps. big deal. Wasted paper and time.

Yep. That's it. These people have a bias against us detail reps, and they're out to "get" us. Just like JAMA. And Am J Medicine. And most top-tier medical schools. You people embarrass me.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

The generalized arguments made in these articles can be transfered to almost any industry.

It's just these authors have a bias against sales reps. big deal. Wasted paper and time.

So, it won't matter that I look through these studies and post a few more for your comment huh? O well I am learning a lot from reading them so I am sure that you will as well.

No Bog deal huh? Sort of like when you or someone else poo-pooed the news in the first study showing that 72% of the drugs in a "sample cabinet" could be replaced with cheaper generics and you said something like "We've know that for 20 years" basically admitting that you and the other Pharma Reps are scumbags.

Then, once again, these aren't just the author's opinions they are quantitative studies published in Journals that represent, if not most, then a large part of the industry. And what I think is funny is that Dr's, Nurses, Hospitals etc are the industry and these articles are just more proof that Pharma, to a large part, and Pharma Reps, to an even larger part, are no longer part of the "healthcare industry" but are seen by the industry as "non-value-add" to the point of destructiveness.

And what I really cherish is too see you make a fool out of yourself and your colleagues by trying to insinuate that most Docs don't feel this same way about you as these "authors" do. By the way, I will repeat again just to wipe your face with the fact that these "authors" are PhD researchers and or Board Certified MDs who have more influence with their peers than you and all 90,000 of your colleagues do. You are marginally educated, Ford Taurus driving, paid prostitute bull shit slingers. Remember that the next time you walk into a Docs office and consider your self a "part of the industry".
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

So, it won't matter that I look through these studies and post a few more for your comment huh? O well I am learning a lot from reading them so I am sure that you will as well.

No Bog deal huh? Sort of like when you or someone else poo-pooed the news in the first study showing that 72% of the drugs in a "sample cabinet" could be replaced with cheaper generics and you said something like "We've know that for 20 years" basically admitting that you and the other Pharma Reps are scumbags.

Then, once again, these aren't just the author's opinions they are quantitative studies published in Journals that represent, if not most, then a large part of the industry. And what I think is funny is that Dr's, Nurses, Hospitals etc are the industry and these articles are just more proof that Pharma, to a large part, and Pharma Reps, to an even larger part, are no longer part of the "healthcare industry" but are seen by the industry as "non-value-add" to the point of destructiveness.

And what I really cherish is too see you make a fool out of yourself and your colleagues by trying to insinuate that most Docs don't feel this same way about you as these "authors" do. By the way, I will repeat again just to wipe your face with the fact that these "authors" are PhD researchers and or Board Certified MDs who have more influence with their peers than you and all 90,000 of your colleagues do. You are marginally educated, Ford Taurus driving, paid prostitute bull shit slingers. Remember that the next time you walk into a Docs office and consider your self a "part of the industry".

As long as I keep growing market share and my employer considers me as value-added then there is nothing you morons can do to change it. Liberals fear more than anything else FREE PEOPLE MAKING FREE CHOICES.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

"Who cares what SCOTUS said." Everyone who isn't like you? Like state laws outlawing interracial marriage, birth control etc, etc, and each time there were people who were saying what you are now. I am glad that SCOTUS decided those issues and I am glad that they have allowed the beginning of the process to legislate people like you out of our healthcare system. If what we have now is "post-constitutional government" then I can't wait for post-post-constitutional government. And calling this a "personal liberty issue" is like classifying the "Public Accommodations" Claus of the Civil Rights Laws a "personal liberty issue". All of these "libertarian ideas" were disposed of by most people in College Dorms rooms over a case of Lucky Lager Beer and discarded when we grew up. Grow up.

WTF are you talking about? How does interracial marriage or birth control factor in to this debate at all. So you think SCOTUS is infallible? How about the worst decision the Supreme Court ever made, which was Dred Scott in 1857, upholding the obnoxious Fugitive Slave Act. The language of Chief Justice Roger B. Taney was atrocious coming from anyone—let alone a member of the Supreme Court. It was beyond racism, totally devoid of humanity. Blacks were “an inferior order and altogether unfit to associate with the white race,” Taney wrote. “They had no rights that the white man was bound to respect.” Moreover: “The Negro might justly and lawfully be reduced to slavery for his own benefit.” They were not citizens and could not claim the “rights and privileges” of citizenship even if their masters took them to free states.

Plessy v. Ferguson (1896), the court upheld Southern apartheid, declaring separate black and white facilities constitutional. Justice Harlan I dissented, calling the Constitution color-blind. It took 58 years for the Supreme Court to declare Harlan right.

As you know, during World War II, the U.S. government rounded up every legal American citizen of Japanese descent on the West Coast and placed them all in internment camps, just to make sure they didn't turn on us and start spying on behalf of their old home country. This "Let's round up an entire race, just to be safe".
You may be wondering how the hell this was legal, and the truth is that somebody did in fact ask the same question. Japanese-American Fred Korematsu sued over it, and it went all the way to the Supreme Court. And in Korematsu v. United States, the Supreme Court ruled 6-3 in favor of interning the Japanese. The idea was that the risk of Japanese espionage (despite never having actually occurred) outweighed Korematsu's individual rights.
The decision has never been overturned.

So as you can see, just because SCOTUS says its ok, it doesn't necessarily make it fucking so.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

As long as I keep growing market share and my employer considers me as value-added then there is nothing you morons can do to change it. Liberals fear more than anything else FREE PEOPLE MAKING FREE CHOICES.

That and giving their money instead of the government taking mine...
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

As long as I keep growing market share and my employer considers me as value-added then there is nothing you morons can do to change it. Liberals fear more than anything else FREE PEOPLE MAKING FREE CHOICES.

Simpleton, no one cares what we think. It matters not what Novartis thinks about your "value" either. The streets are loaded with pharma Hall of Famers, multiple COE winners, award trip winners, and reps that averaged $40-50 large in bonus per year. We dont provide much value any more. So they ban us, bar us, make us lurk in hallways to get signatures, kick us out of hospitals, and trash the industry in journals and at medical symposia.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

Simpleton, no one cares what we think. It matters not what Novartis thinks about your "value" either. The streets are loaded with pharma Hall of Famers, multiple COE winners, award trip winners, and reps that averaged $40-50 large in bonus per year. We dont provide much value any more. So they ban us, bar us, make us lurk in hallways to get signatures, kick us out of hospitals, and trash the industry in journals and at medical symposia.

"ACA will leave the industry with anywhere between $10 and 35 billion in additional profits over the next decade". I LIKE THAT!!!

To be sure, the pharmaceutical industry is taking several financial hits as the Affordable Care Act is rolled out. The drug industry was a key backer of President Barack Obama’s health reform agenda, which calls for various rebates from drug makers to pay for some of the additional benefits provided to the uninsured.

GlobalData said higher rebates for prescription drugs provided through the Medicaid programs will cost the industry about $20 billion over the next decade. Drug-makers must also pay new “excises taxes on branded drugs, which are expected to reach $30 billion by 2021,” Owide said.

“Companies will have to make a few financial sacrifices when the new reforms come into force,” Owide said. “However, they have been able to engineer the new legislation to minimize the negative impact on their profitability. Overall, the ACA will leave the industry with anywhere between $10 and 35 billion in additional profits over the next decade, which is a significant boon at a time when patent expiries are heavily undermining the efforts of the pharma industry.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceja...ll-bring-drug-industry-35-billion-in-profits/
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

"ACA will leave the industry with anywhere between $10 and 35 billion in additional profits over the next decade". I LIKE THAT!!!

To be sure, the pharmaceutical industry is taking several financial hits as the Affordable Care Act is rolled out. The drug industry was a key backer of President Barack Obama’s health reform agenda, which calls for various rebates from drug makers to pay for some of the additional benefits provided to the uninsured.

GlobalData said higher rebates for prescription drugs provided through the Medicaid programs will cost the industry about $20 billion over the next decade. Drug-makers must also pay new “excises taxes on branded drugs, which are expected to reach $30 billion by 2021,” Owide said.

“Companies will have to make a few financial sacrifices when the new reforms come into force,” Owide said. “However, they have been able to engineer the new legislation to minimize the negative impact on their profitability. Overall, the ACA will leave the industry with anywhere between $10 and 35 billion in additional profits over the next decade, which is a significant boon at a time when patent expiries are heavily undermining the efforts of the pharma industry.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceja...ll-bring-drug-industry-35-billion-in-profits/

You guys don't get it do you? The Pharma companies have protected themselves but sold you down the river. It won't come quick and not for everyone but they will need and keep fewer and fewer Reps each year. They traded off the "high cost lower revenue market" for a "lower cost higher revenue market". ACA will now cover about 30 million more Americans who will yes, use more drugs. MOSTLY Generics and when ANYONE uses Branded your company will be penalized by having to pay rebates.

Which is more profitable for them, pay you guys the money that you are making now to sell branded drugs that they pay no rebates on or not sell through you guys but directly through GPO's etc, pay the rebates and save your salaries etc.

I told you before, Pharma sold you down the river, fucking morons.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

You guys don't get it do you? The Pharma companies have protected themselves but sold you down the river. It won't come quick and not for everyone but they will need and keep fewer and fewer Reps each year. They traded off the "high cost lower revenue market" for a "lower cost higher revenue market". ACA will now cover about 30 million more Americans who will yes, use more drugs. MOSTLY Generics and when ANYONE uses Branded your company will be penalized by having to pay rebates.

Which is more profitable for them, pay you guys the money that you are making now to sell branded drugs that they pay no rebates on or not sell through you guys but directly through GPO's etc, pay the rebates and save your salaries etc.

I told you before, Pharma sold you down the river, fucking morons.

From Post # 6 in this thread "The study says that there are 90,000 Pharma Reps in the US. And if we estimate that your costs are $300,000 / yr (that includes salary, bene's, travel, sales promos, gifts, speaker programs etc) then the total cost is 90,000 x $300,000 = $27B / yr."

Hum, sounds like something close to the projected increase in profitability "engineered" into the new law by you bosses huh?
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

That number has been reduced. it was from 2007.

It's more like 68,000 today. Still fewer than IRS agents or car salesmen.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

"ACA will leave the industry with anywhere between $10 and 35 billion in additional profits over the next decade". I LIKE THAT!!!

Obama, I was wrong about you. I love you. I love Obamacare. Because of you, we will profit even more. Obama and his new system will create the next generation of Robber Barons. When Pharma needs something done, go tell government to make it happen. Isn't this so much better than the principles of limited government and free markets. We now have Utopia!
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

Since Obama has established the precedent now that government can force individuals to buy whatever the government deems is necessary and appropriate, Obama will require the use of branded meds ONLY! Another fantastic deal, because as we ALL know.... Government is all-knowing, all-caring and wants ONLY what is best for the huddled masses.