Sorin vs. BSC CRM Products

The reason Sorin/ELA will not make it is because, as demonstrated on this thread, they are obsessed with Safe-R. They cannot get past it in any discussion
Guys you need more than one algorithm to get business. Please stop

1) WARAD (Window of Atrial Rate Acceleration Detection)- purely atrial based adapative TARP algorithm based on calculation of TARP from a percentage of the previous normal A-A interval(s). Except for post-PVC function, there is no PVARP in Sorin devices. PVARP is non-physiologic; there is no natural refractory period in the heart that corresponds to it; it is the reason why many programming limitations in devices that depend on it. With WARAD, the TARP is determined by the patients own natural changes in rate; not arbitrary programmed values. It distinguishes "normal" events from "pathological" events. [ICDs and PMs]

2) FMS (Fallback Mode Switching)- mode switching based on statistical analysis. First, PAC sensed in WARAD puts FMS into suspicion phase. During suspicion phase, ventricle cannot track faster than 120 bpm. FMS looks for a "strong" or "weak" criterion based on number of V cycles with A events falling into WARAD. If criterion is met, then mode switch to DDI occurs. This analysis allows for atrial undersensing to occur during mode switch. Traditional "rate vs run" algorithms can result in V tracking to the max rate and are dependant on 100% atrial sensing. [ICDs and PMs]

3) V AutoThreshold- Automatically runs its own calibration test each it performs automatic threshold test (unlike STJ's AutoCapture which can only be calibrated or re-calibrated with the programmer). In case of an indeterminate test, will re-test immediately or will temporarily program to higher output and repeat test at next indicate time (unlike MDT's CaputreManagement which will program to high output and stay there until reprogrammed with the programmer). [PMs]

4) Dual Sensor Rate Response- One of only two manufacturers to offer dual sensor rate response (MV & accelerometer). Only one to offer the option of MV only programming (BSC only offers MV+Accel or Accel only). [PMs]

5) Rest Rate- Rest rate algorithm is based 3 physiologic criteria (not programmed clock settings). If cardiac rest, respiratory rest and lack of frequent ectopics is met, then rate can drop to programmed rest rate. If frequent ectopics occur during rest rate, rate will rapidly rise back to lower rate potentially overdriving the ectopics, lessening the chance of arrhythmias during slower rates. [PMs]

6) AIDA+ (Automatic Interpretation for Data Analysis)- diagnostic package using Holter technology to record up to 6 months of A & V marker channels. Is downloaded to programmer and analyzed. Only diagnostics available that gives textual feedback of automatically analyzed data. Graphical evidence to back-up textual feedback is presented. Will give what current related settings are and will make suggested changes. [PMs and ICDs]

7) ASC (Automatic Sensitivity Control)- uses a stepdown method and automatically adjusts the functional sensing floor depending on the size of the sensed V. In the presence of large V signals, the sensing floor is less sensitive allowing for avoidance of sensing noise and other small extraneous signals. On small V signals, the sensing floor is more sensitive to allow for detection of VF. ASC also has a programmable post-Vpacing margin to allow the step over the Twave to be temporarily less sensitive to avoid Twave oversensing without changing the entire ASC algorithm. In addition, there is also a post-Vsensing/pacing margin to allow the atrial channel to be temporarily less sensitive following the V to avoid far-field Rwave sensing. Hence, this algorithm addresses two of the three main causes for inappropriate shocks- noise and inappropriate sensing of Rwaves or Twaves. [ICDs]

8) PARAD+ (P And R Arrhythmia Discrimination)- When Sorin designed it's dual chamber ICD, it did so from the ground up. They did so with the PARAD algorithm as well. Other companies already had single chamber ICDs and modified them to include atrial hardware and started with the same discriminators as were in the single chamber ICDs- stability and onset. The PARAD algorithm was designed from the start using criteria that an EP typically uses to discriminate arrhythmias in the lab. In addition to stability and onset, the algorithm uses association of A to V, level of A & V association, and chamber of origin. To better discriminate rapidly conducted AF which starts to look regular and commonly fools most discrimination algorithms, another criteria called VT Long Cycle was added (this criteria is also available in the single chamber devices). Since MDT and STJ seem to have recently made it envouge to refer to computer models, Hintringer et al is the only head-to-head comparison of algorithms from all 5 manuafacturers and showed the PARAD+ algorithm to be most effective at discriminating SVTs from VTs. It should also be noted that Sorin devices detect and discriminate throughout charging. Also, when programmed to VVI, Sorin dual chamber devices can continue to monitor the atrial channel and provide dual chamber discrimination. Sorin devices never uses committed shocks. [ICDs]

9) BTO (Brady-Tachy Overlap)- Sorin devices are the only devices on the market to allow pacing and tracking into the Slow VT zone. Every other company must maintain some margin between its max rate and its slowest tachy detection interval. This means that a physician need not compromise the ability of their patients to exercise when they have slow VTs. This is especially true for patients with heart failure in whom slow VTs are more prevalent as well as patients with doucmented VTs that are on antiarrhythmics. [ICDs]
 






Please explain:

"MVP only works for 3rd deg AV block and 2nd deg AV block greater than 3:2."

Because of the single criteria that MVP uses (2 out of 4 A-A cycles without an intervening V sensed event), it is insensitive 2:1 block (unless patient is 100% pacing in the A in which case a Vp is delivered at the end of the atrial escape interval + 80 ms; an earlier As event which conducts as in 2:1 block will inhibit switching to DDD(R)) and cannot detect most Wenckebach blocks. It will allow long AR or PR intervals as long as the V sensed event falls between A events, but it does not allow for management of AR or PR intervals that are "too long" and may be symptomatic.

From the EnRhythm Reference Manual "Long PR intervals – For patients with long PR intervals, the device will remain in the AAIR or AAI mode. Permanent DDDR
or DDD modes may be more appropriate for patients with symptomatic first-degree AV block."

You will notice that MDT typically only uses examples of MVP in 3rd deg heart block. They do not like to show how MVP will respond in other types of block and pacing conditions.
 












DUDE! MVP only recommended when av block not present! For intermittent av block and 3rd degree block search av is indicated..kinda like when you use dual sensor for 3rd degree Hrt block or intermittant block and no chronotropic incompetence! Seriously! Get over it!
 






Those Sorin algorithms are the same ones they were talking about 7 years ago. Innovate something new.

Define "innovate". Many of the things that other manufacturers call an innovations are actually fixes to problems with their current technology. They add the fix and give it some fancy name to make the customer think it is some brand, spanking new feature. For example, STJ's new DecisionTX with ShockGuard is nothing new. It is changes that were previously made to their sensing algorithm. These Sorin algorithms just simply work and work well. Why would one want to try and fix something that isn't broken???
 






First this is the most talk Sorin has had ever. Second innovate perhaps a 4 fr LV lead that has 4 poles. A MRI safe device. A 40 j delivered charge. Remote monitoring. Wireless rf to device. A new lead insulation.

Yea all the features mentioned are old and reliable. Create something new
 






Because of the single criteria that MVP uses (2 out of 4 A-A cycles without an intervening V sensed event), it is insensitive 2:1 block (unless patient is 100% pacing in the A in which case a Vp is delivered at the end of the atrial escape interval + 80 ms; an earlier As event which conducts as in 2:1 block will inhibit switching to DDD(R)) and cannot detect most Wenckebach blocks. It will allow long AR or PR intervals as long as the V sensed event falls between A events, but it does not allow for management of AR or PR intervals that are "too long" and may be symptomatic.

From the EnRhythm Reference Manual "Long PR intervals – For patients with long PR intervals, the device will remain in the AAIR or AAI mode. Permanent DDDR
or DDD modes may be more appropriate for patients with symptomatic first-degree AV block."

You will notice that MDT typically only uses examples of MVP in 3rd deg heart block. They do not like to show how MVP will respond in other types of block and pacing conditions.


Ok, I get it now - you mean they use INTERMITTENT 3rd degree heart block to demonstrate how MVP works in a 'textbook' type scenario. I thought you were implying that MVP should be used in CHB patients.

Sorin's problem will never be technology as long as coverage remains am issue.
 






1) WARAD (Window of Atrial Rate Acceleration Detection)- purely atrial based adapative TARP algorithm based on calculation of TARP from a percentage of the previous normal A-A interval(s). Except for post-PVC function, there is no PVARP in Sorin devices. PVARP is non-physiologic; there is no natural refractory period in the heart that corresponds to it; it is the reason why many programming limitations in devices that depend on it. With WARAD, the TARP is determined by the patients own natural changes in rate; not arbitrary programmed values. It distinguishes "normal" events from "pathological" events. [ICDs and PMs]

2) FMS (Fallback Mode Switching)- mode switching based on statistical analysis. First, PAC sensed in WARAD puts FMS into suspicion phase. During suspicion phase, ventricle cannot track faster than 120 bpm. FMS looks for a "strong" or "weak" criterion based on number of V cycles with A events falling into WARAD. If criterion is met, then mode switch to DDI occurs. This analysis allows for atrial undersensing to occur during mode switch. Traditional "rate vs run" algorithms can result in V tracking to the max rate and are dependant on 100% atrial sensing. [ICDs and PMs]

3) V AutoThreshold- Automatically runs its own calibration test each it performs automatic threshold test (unlike STJ's AutoCapture which can only be calibrated or re-calibrated with the programmer). In case of an indeterminate test, will re-test immediately or will temporarily program to higher output and repeat test at next indicate time (unlike MDT's CaputreManagement which will program to high output and stay there until reprogrammed with the programmer). [PMs]

4) Dual Sensor Rate Response- One of only two manufacturers to offer dual sensor rate response (MV & accelerometer). Only one to offer the option of MV only programming (BSC only offers MV+Accel or Accel only). [PMs]

5) Rest Rate- Rest rate algorithm is based 3 physiologic criteria (not programmed clock settings). If cardiac rest, respiratory rest and lack of frequent ectopics is met, then rate can drop to programmed rest rate. If frequent ectopics occur during rest rate, rate will rapidly rise back to lower rate potentially overdriving the ectopics, lessening the chance of arrhythmias during slower rates. [PMs]

6) AIDA+ (Automatic Interpretation for Data Analysis)- diagnostic package using Holter technology to record up to 6 months of A & V marker channels. Is downloaded to programmer and analyzed. Only diagnostics available that gives textual feedback of automatically analyzed data. Graphical evidence to back-up textual feedback is presented. Will give what current related settings are and will make suggested changes. [PMs and ICDs]

7) ASC (Automatic Sensitivity Control)- uses a stepdown method and automatically adjusts the functional sensing floor depending on the size of the sensed V. In the presence of large V signals, the sensing floor is less sensitive allowing for avoidance of sensing noise and other small extraneous signals. On small V signals, the sensing floor is more sensitive to allow for detection of VF. ASC also has a programmable post-Vpacing margin to allow the step over the Twave to be temporarily less sensitive to avoid Twave oversensing without changing the entire ASC algorithm. In addition, there is also a post-Vsensing/pacing margin to allow the atrial channel to be temporarily less sensitive following the V to avoid far-field Rwave sensing. Hence, this algorithm addresses two of the three main causes for inappropriate shocks- noise and inappropriate sensing of Rwaves or Twaves. [ICDs]

8) PARAD+ (P And R Arrhythmia Discrimination)- When Sorin designed it's dual chamber ICD, it did so from the ground up. They did so with the PARAD algorithm as well. Other companies already had single chamber ICDs and modified them to include atrial hardware and started with the same discriminators as were in the single chamber ICDs- stability and onset. The PARAD algorithm was designed from the start using criteria that an EP typically uses to discriminate arrhythmias in the lab. In addition to stability and onset, the algorithm uses association of A to V, level of A & V association, and chamber of origin. To better discriminate rapidly conducted AF which starts to look regular and commonly fools most discrimination algorithms, another criteria called VT Long Cycle was added (this criteria is also available in the single chamber devices). Since MDT and STJ seem to have recently made it envouge to refer to computer models, Hintringer et al is the only head-to-head comparison of algorithms from all 5 manuafacturers and showed the PARAD+ algorithm to be most effective at discriminating SVTs from VTs. It should also be noted that Sorin devices detect and discriminate throughout charging. Also, when programmed to VVI, Sorin dual chamber devices can continue to monitor the atrial channel and provide dual chamber discrimination. Sorin devices never uses committed shocks. [ICDs]

9) BTO (Brady-Tachy Overlap)- Sorin devices are the only devices on the market to allow pacing and tracking into the Slow VT zone. Every other company must maintain some margin between its max rate and its slowest tachy detection interval. This means that a physician need not compromise the ability of their patients to exercise when they have slow VTs. This is especially true for patients with heart failure in whom slow VTs are more prevalent as well as patients with doucmented VTs that are on antiarrhythmics. [ICDs]

Yawn... All of which are 5/10 years old.
 












The fact remains that US will never be able to match European engineering capabilities. Also in the near future, the Asian tigers like China and India will overtake US.

It's not a mistake that europeans aren't all speaking German, especially those pussies in France, it's because the US "engineered" an ass whipping. There are plenty of good ideas and good technology that never make it to market or don't succeed, that's because leadership and vision are also required, not just good ideas.

I wouldn't allow a Sorin device to be implanted in my dog.
 






It's not a mistake that europeans aren't all speaking German, especially those pussies in France, it's because the US "engineered" an ass whipping. There are plenty of good ideas and good technology that never make it to market or don't succeed, that's because leadership and vision are also required, not just good ideas.

I wouldn't allow a Sorin device to be implanted in my dog.

Fine.

The set screws, seals, headers used in cans are not complex to master the techniques of their design and manufacture. However, they account for generating repeated "Dear Doctor" letters.

However, the reps still continue to sell these medical devices to kill patients - with very simple parts that have proven to be difficult to design and manufacture.
 












Fine.

The set screws, seals, headers used in cans are not complex to master the techniques of their design and manufacture. However, they account for generating repeated "Dear Doctor" letters.

However, the reps still continue to sell these medical devices to kill patients - with very simple parts that have proven to be difficult to design and manufacture.

Go search FDA Maude for Sorin and Paradym. It doesn't look like you should be talking about set screws. I think I counted 20 specific noise/ set screw issues since the start of the year. In fact that is pretty much all they saw.
 






Go search FDA Maude for Sorin and Paradym. It doesn't look like you should be talking about set screws. I think I counted 20 specific noise/ set screw issues since the start of the year. In fact that is pretty much all they saw.

And I counted triple the number of patient deaths on FDA Maude every year for Cognis and Teligen each.
 






And I counted triple the number of patient deaths on FDA Maude every year for Cognis and Teligen each.

What a freak. Maude will show deaths unrelated to devices. You are an idiot. Take your bs somewhere else. You must be French. BTW you are able to program mv only in a bsci pm. Get lost Frenchy. We Americans are busy protecting your weak ass and developing cutting edge technology.
 






What a freak. Maude will show deaths unrelated to devices. You are an idiot. Take your bs somewhere else. You must be French. BTW you are able to program mv only in a bsci pm. Get lost Frenchy. We Americans are busy protecting your weak ass and developing cutting edge technology.

By the way I am not French and I am Italian!
From your Dear Doctor Letters it becomes crystal clear that you are a habitual bluff master. What is a connection between RRT and madly shocking the patients?
Before you talk about programming mv in a BSX pm you should learn to design a good screw, seal and header, otherwise header get detached, the leads instead making good electrical contact they start coming out of their port, and you know what happens after that like your cans start getting mad and continuously give shocks until the battery dies!
You also bring bad names to Biotronik leads and JnJ stents too.
How long you think your job lasts? May be another year I think.
 






Inducements coming from the pre and post market clinical all company's promote? Sorin has superior size and longevities when compared to all your Brady and Tachy products. Reliability? You guys are the worst of the worst. Yes, their leads SUX. They have to use competitive leads. BTW,check with your director of European Marketing, Marta A. She'll tell you that Sorin kicks BSX ass all over Europe and Japan.

Well said, I laugh all the time I see people smashing Sorin. We are lucky that their sales force is so small. Their SafeR algorithm is the shit, 99.9%, we are very fortunate. Their Active fixation lead is shit because you can't see the helix on fluro; but their passive leads are very very very good. I just hope to God that this Son-R thing doesn't catch on, if it does what I've been hearing they will gain a lot of market share; but again, their coverage problems will keep this surpressed.
 






What a freak. Maude will show deaths unrelated to devices. You are an idiot. Take your bs somewhere else. You must be French. BTW you are able to program mv only in a bsci pm. Get lost Frenchy. We Americans are busy protecting your weak ass and developing cutting edge technology.

Medical innovations.....First in Europeans.....then in people!
 






This is pointless.
Sorin; Italian so big in Italy
ELA; French so big in France

Some nice algorithms but nothing else. And they have been looking for a buyer for years...