Sorin vs. BSC CRM Products

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Anonymous

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I am hoping that someone can give me some honest feedback regarding Sorin's CRM products vs. BSC's CRM products. I want to know the good and the bad from this board's user's perspective. It would be great if you can restrain yourselves from some of the negative personal comments I have seen on the board going back and forth. I am not in the CRM industry and (obviously) therefore not with a CRM company.

Specifically, I am wondering if their product have any features that create any competitive advantage for their products for pacing, CRT and Defib over BSC's? I know that they are small in the U.S. and I already assume there is no bundle opportunity when up against the "big three". I don't even think they have a rep in many local areas of the U.S.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
 






Anonymous said:
I am hoping that someone can give me some honest feedback regarding Sorin's CRM products vs. BSC's CRM products. I want to know the good and the bad from this board's user's perspective. It would be great if you can restrain yourselves from some of the negative personal comments I have seen on the board going back and forth. I am not in the CRM industry and (obviously) therefore not with a CRM company.

Specifically, I am wondering if their product have any features that create any competitive advantage for their products for pacing, CRT and Defib over BSC's? I know that they are small in the U.S. and I already assume there is no bundle opportunity when up against the "big three". I don't even think they have a rep in many local areas of the U.S.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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I doubt you'll get any serious or honest(if it in any way says Sorin is comparable) feed back. There's a reason they have <1% mkt share in the US.
 






Anonymous said:
I doubt you'll get any serious or honest(if it in any way says Sorin is comparable) feed back. There's a reason they have <1% mkt share in the US.
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Think of it this way: if both companies had the same recall history, would Sorin even have the 'percent of a percent' market share they do have?

Sorin's technology Is fine, after all - their AAI Safe+R algorithm was used by MDT to develop MVP. They have horrible leads and cumbersome high voltage products, but what company doesn't have its problems?

But Sorin's story will never be about their technology - it will be about their lack of coverage and their ALLEGED business practices. Until they have a sales force big enough to adequately service from coast to coast, they will always be confined to the metro areas they have won over to date.

The troubling part for Sorin and Bio is this: even when everyone felt CRM was on the verge of exploding, most agreed that the Big 3 could handle the demand. Now that the dream of a huge CRM market has been burst, the Big 3 are 'right sizing' and that means Sorin and Biotronik have never looked more like third wheels than they do now.
 






Anonymous said:
Think of it this way: if both companies had the same recall history, would Sorin even have the 'percent of a percent' market share they do have?

Sorin's technology Is fine, after all - their AAI Safe+R algorithm was used by MDT to develop MVP. They have horrible leads and cumbersome high voltage products, but what company doesn't have its problems?

But Sorin's story will never be about their technology - it will be about their lack of coverage and their ALLEGED business practices. Until they have a sales force big enough to adequately service from coast to coast, they will always be confined to the metro areas they have won over to date.

The troubling part for Sorin and Bio is this: even when everyone felt CRM was on the verge of exploding, most agreed that the Big 3 could handle the demand. Now that the dream of a huge CRM market has been burst, the Big 3 are 'right sizing' and that means Sorin and Biotronik have never looked more like third wheels than they do now.
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You make good points, but MVP is a shitty algorithm and Safe+R is too. Everyone understands the need to minimize V pacing, but the long pauses caused by MVP and Safe R can be terrible for patients. AV search does the job and doesn't cause pause induced VT or patients to feel symptomatic.
 






pause induced vt ? care to share a real study with real numbers from a few sites ? total bs.
symptomatic patients ? are you programming this to high block patients.. you should be symptomatic if you do..

the bennefit of safeR and MVP outweight any search av for sick sinus patients..

you must be a young pharma rep or you have been eating your company marketing for too long.

MVP and SafeR are programming modes. Search AV is a feature not a mode..

A programming mode is carefully selected for a patient .. Search AV is not..

2 different animals..


I guess your company does not offer that mode .. so you need to bash something that helps patients in 99% of patients with SSS and low degree block.

Anonymous said:
You make good points, but MVP is a shitty algorithm and Safe+R is too. Everyone understands the need to minimize V pacing, but the long pauses caused by MVP and Safe R can be terrible for patients. AV search does the job and doesn't cause pause induced VT or patients to feel symptomatic.
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Anonymous said:
http://www.theheart.org/article/817743.do

MVP is proarrhythmic! Common knowledge

400ms AVD makes your "mode" obsolete
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In a sense, you're both right. Look, Canada has been using single chamber AAI devices for years, so clearly there is a patient population that can safely be managed with a reverse mode switch such as MVP. And just a quick note about pause dependent VT, I think it's rare, and when it does happen it's got to be a significant pause - otherwise we'd be seeing more VTs stem from manual threshold testing.

However, as was mentioned, patient selection is everything. We've all seen the 700ms AVD technical presentations, but thats the exception and not the rule.

Finally, EPs in my territory love it. They believe the risks of remodeling compel us to at least give it a whirl, thankfully for me my pacers have a reverse mode switch and an AV Search Hysteresis feature, so if the former doesn't suit the patient, we have a more traditional fall back option.
 


















Anonymous said:
Sorin is dog shit. Plain and simple. No one uses this product that isn't somehow being induced to use this product. Everyone knows it. The products suck.
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Inducements coming from the pre and post market clinical all company's promote? Sorin has superior size and longevities when compared to all your Brady and Tachy products. Reliability? You guys are the worst of the worst. Yes, their leads SUX. They have to use competitive leads. BTW,check with your director of European Marketing, Marta A. She'll tell you that Sorin kicks BSX ass all over Europe and Japan.
 






Anonymous said:
Inducements coming from the pre and post market clinical all company's promote? Sorin has superior size and longevities when compared to all your Brady and Tachy products. Reliability? You guys are the worst of the worst. Yes, their leads SUX. They have to use competitive leads. BTW,check with your director of European Marketing, Marta A. She'll tell you that Sorin kicks BSX ass all over Europe and Japan.
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I work in Europe. Sorin/ELA get business from the Italians and French. As Marta well knows being Italian. Everywhere else they are a long way 5th place
 






Anonymous said:
I work in Europe. Sorin/ELA get business from the Italians and French. As Marta well knows being Italian. Everywhere else they are a long way 5th place
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Marta, Laura and Fred H. were all hired by BSX from Sorin to help BSX's numbers. I understand the company jockeying, but at least be truthful. Sorin continues to have a very strong position in Europe. They are second in Japan.

The point of this discussion is whether or not Sorin has quality products that are competitive against the big 3. They've been around since the 1960's and
are responsible for several innovations that they are known for in Europe. MUSTIC= BiV, first DDDR ICD, ADI mode gave birth to MVP.

Are they a major player in the US..No. Can they be..yes.
 






Anonymous said:
Marta, Laura and Fred H. were all hired by BSX from Sorin to help BSX's numbers. I understand the company jockeying, but at least be truthful. Sorin continues to have a very strong position in Europe. They are second in Japan.

The point of this discussion is whether or not Sorin has quality products that are competitive against the big 3. They've been around since the 1960's and
are responsible for several innovations that they are known for in Europe. MUSTIC= BiV, first DDDR ICD, ADI mode gave birth to MVP.

Are they a major player in the US..No. Can they be..yes.
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I agree. They have some flaws, but the products are solid. They are tiny, last longer than any others out there and have good algorithms. They just need to set up a solid infastructure. They are starting to do that in pockets of the US.
 






Anonymous said:
Marta, Laura and Fred H. were all hired by BSX from Sorin to help BSX's numbers. I understand the company jockeying, but at least be truthful. Sorin continues to have a very strong position in Europe. They are second in Japan.

The point of this discussion is whether or not Sorin has quality products that are competitive against the big 3. They've been around since the 1960's and
are responsible for several innovations that they are known for in Europe. MUSTIC= BiV, first DDDR ICD, ADI mode gave birth to MVP.

Are they a major player in the US..No. Can they be..yes.
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All correct, tho Marta was at GDT originally apart from the last point.They have no chance of breaking into the US in any meaningful way..
 






Anonymous said:
Marta, Laura and Fred H. were all hired by BSX from Sorin to help BSX's numbers. I understand the company jockeying, but at least be truthful. Sorin continues to have a very strong position in Europe. They are second in Japan.

The point of this discussion is whether or not Sorin has quality products that are competitive against the big 3. They've been around since the 1960's and
are responsible for several innovations that they are known for in Europe. MUSTIC= BiV, first DDDR ICD, ADI mode gave birth to MVP.

Are they a major player in the US..No. Can they be..yes.
Click to expand...

I guess anything is possible, but the few places they get business in the US they are so crooked(and before you start with the whole "everybody does it" routine, only Bio does it like Sorin) that only doctors who are willing to put their reputations at stake for the $$$ are willing to put Sorin in. Weren't there some Sorin reps in Fla who did time in prison?
 






400 avd is fine when you have intact av conduction..

your VIP study to validate VIP excluded all patient with AVdelay greater than 220 !!

why do you think STJ did that ? .. because VIP cannot decrease VP below 20% in many patients...

AAI - DDD has no AV delay so for a certain population you will have less than 1-2% pacing.... for the other patients well you have AVsearch up to 600 ms with MDT.

Anonymous said:
http://www.theheart.org/article/817743.do

MVP is proarrhythmic! Common knowledge

400ms AVD makes your "mode" obsolete
Click to expand...
 






"Facts are stubborn things" - Ronald Reagan

SafeR vs MVP vs AV Search:

1) AV Search still uses an AV delay whereas SafeR and MVP do not.

2) Check the most recent ACC/AHA/HRS guidelines: the experts state that AV search algorithms do not adequately reduce unnecessary V pacing.

3) MVP only works for 3rd deg AV block and 2nd deg AV block greater than 3:2.

4) MVP only searches for intrinsic conduction at increasing longer intervals.

5) MVP only gives a diagnostic counter of number of switches.

6) Gillis et al originally published the mean Vp for MVP to be about 17%. A year later, the paper was re-published, did not mention mean Vp and MDT has never mentioned it since.

6) SafeR uses four criteria: 3rd deg, 2nd deg, 1st deg, and pause.

7) SafeR searches for AV conduction at least every 100 cycles and will also switch to AAI mode anytime 12 conducted cycles are detected.

8) SafeR has lockouts to manage frequent switching and switching during exercise.

9) SafeR has a comprehensive diagnostic package for AV block including electrograms which shows analysis of number of switches, time of switches, type of switches, intrinsic and paced AV intervals and delays, etc.

10) SafeR has consistently achieved mean Vp of 0.2 to 0.4% Vp in several studies.
 






"Facts are stubborn things" - Ronald Reagan

Yes, Sorin did have a DOJ investigation involving an independent rep group in the Miami area. The case between DOJ and Sorin has been settled but cases against the individual(s) is still ongoing. Currently, Sorin is the only CRM company with no active subpeona or investigation with the feds.

Every other US CRM company (not necessarily their CRM division) has one or more active subpeonas or investigations underway. Most recently and most notably Biotronik.
 






Anonymous said:
"Facts are stubborn things" - Ronald Reagan

SafeR vs MVP vs AV Search:

1) AV Search still uses an AV delay whereas SafeR and MVP do not.

2) Check the most recent ACC/AHA/HRS guidelines: the experts state that AV search algorithms do not adequately reduce unnecessary V pacing.

3) MVP only works for 3rd deg AV block and 2nd deg AV block greater than 3:2.

4) MVP only searches for intrinsic conduction at increasing longer intervals.

5) MVP only gives a diagnostic counter of number of switches.

6) Gillis et al originally published the mean Vp for MVP to be about 17%. A year later, the paper was re-published, did not mention mean Vp and MDT has never mentioned it since.

6) SafeR uses four criteria: 3rd deg, 2nd deg, 1st deg, and pause.

7) SafeR searches for AV conduction at least every 100 cycles and will also switch to AAI mode anytime 12 conducted cycles are detected.

8) SafeR has lockouts to manage frequent switching and switching during exercise.

9) SafeR has a comprehensive diagnostic package for AV block including electrograms which shows analysis of number of switches, time of switches, type of switches, intrinsic and paced AV intervals and delays, etc.

10) SafeR has consistently achieved mean Vp of 0.2 to 0.4% Vp in several studies.
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Please explain:

"MVP only works for 3rd deg AV block and 2nd deg AV block greater than 3:2."
 






The reason Sorin/ELA will not make it is because, as demonstrated on this thread, they are obsessed with Safe-R. They cannot get past it in any discussion
Guys you need more than one algorithm to get business. Please stop
 






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