Romney vs Perry

[Vagitarian]

At best, you are being careless with the facts and letting your bias cause you to smear someone that you happen to disagree with.

The only people who really know what happened are Santorum, his wife and their medical team. If you want to know the truth, then I suggest you read what Santorum has written or said about the event or read his wife's book. You know the wife that you intimated as being the helpless victim of her bullying husband even though she is a nurse and a lawyer and her dad is a pediatrician. Yeah, that one. Read Letters to Gabriel if you want some insight.

Abortion is a volatile topic. Disagreements will be had, but your smear of Santorum is based upon half-truths and untruths and a pro-choice zealot's over-eager desire to catch one of the strongest and most eloquent pro-life voice's in hypocrisy, but there is no hypocrisy, just sound and moral positions and decisions by Santorum.

Nice speculation, but the reality is that many victims of rape who became mothers are now extremely glad they did and wouldn't have it any other way. Many children of rape are wonderful blessings to their families and the world. Having a beautiful baby to counterbalance the ugly act of rape, which isn't going away, can be very therapeutic.

This is one of the most twisted, misogynic posts I've ever read.

 

[Pale Horse]

How the hell did this turn into an abortion debate (again)?

 

[jasmin]

Nice speculation, but the reality is that many victims of rape who became mothers are now extremely glad they did and wouldn't have it any other way. Many children of rape are wonderful blessings to their families and the world. Having a beautiful baby to counterbalance the ugly act of rape, which isn't going away, can be very therapeutic.

This is one of the most twisted, misogynic posts I've ever read.

And as I mom, I will tell you it is one of the sickest, most vile, and outright wrong statements ever made. Oh yeah, therapeutic to carry a rapist's child! Sure, and no worries about genetics either! Or how about instead of looking into the sweet face of your child, the face looks like the rapist's? What a hateful, misguided person. BTW, what I have stated about Santorum is correct. You can try to split hairs but what they did is no different than what they protest against. He is unlikely to hold office again. Finally, when a woman is raped, she must be given some control back over her life. It is no politician's right to tell her she must bear this child.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

Nice speculation, but the reality is that many victims of rape who became mothers are now extremely glad they did and wouldn't have it any other way. Many children of rape are wonderful blessings to their families and the world. Having a beautiful baby to counterbalance the ugly act of rape, which isn't going away, can be very therapeutic.

This is one of the most twisted, misogynic posts I've ever read.

Ridiculously false charges of misogynism leveled at me don't hold a candle to accurate charges of barbarism and support for baby-killing that you and SPN are in fact guilty of.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

And as I mom, I will tell you it is one of the sickest, most vile, and outright wrong statements ever made.Translation: MFAS is absolutely correct, but since it differs from what I choose to believe, despite the facts, I'll get all hysterical and make crazy statements. Oh yeah, therapeutic to carry a rapist's child! Sure, and no worries about genetics either! Or how about instead of looking into the sweet face of your child, the face looks like the rapist's? What a hateful, misguided person.I'm not the one looking to snuff out babies' lives, but I'm the hateful, misguided one? Hardly. BTW, what I have stated about Santorum is correct. No, they are lies, pure and simple.You can try to split hairs but what they did is no different than what they protest against.Sorry that you are so incredibly dense that you can't tell the difference between a miscarriage ie a SPONTANEOUS abortion and a surgical abortion, between a natural process and a determined taking of human life. He is unlikely to hold office again. Finally, when a woman is raped, she must be given some control back over her life. It is no politician's right to tell her she must bear this child.

Politicians have the right to tell women all sorts of things that they must and must not do. Obamacare, anyone?

What? Just because you are a mother with your opinions, other mothers' opinions which are diametrically opposed to yours are invalid? Looks like you love sexism when it suits your purposes. You think that a uterus somehow makes your opinion more valid than my testicles make my opinion, actually the facts which I have stated? What a silly and utterly intellectually bankrupt position, but it's the position you have foolishly staked out for yourself. So in addition to being wrong on the facts and wrong morally you wish to add egomania on par with Obama's?

 

[Man For All Seasons]

As usual, those who doubt me do so to their extreme peril. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Looks like the empiric data tend to support me rather than SPN's and Vag's hyper-emotional assumptions.

Here's the money quote:

Through inductive analysis, 13 categories were developed and analyzed in light of related theory. The findings seemed to challenge the assumption that raising a child of rape is a globally negative experience, a re-traumatization

http://gradworks.umi.com/32/06/3206974.html

 

[Man For All Seasons]

But she's still going to hell right? I mean she hasn't accepted Haysoos as her savior.

Nice way to try to avoid the fact that your girlfriend is not too bright for being involved with you.

What she and you need to know that as long as she is a Jew living the sort of lifestyle she is with you. She IS destined for Hell. Get that worked out and we'll talk deep theology later.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

I call bullshit.

When you start helping support all the children who were raised outside of families, uneducated and exposed to crime as a way of life, I'll rethink my position. Abortion is not murder, it's simply stopping further development of an embryo that never attained consciousness. If the 45 million abortions since RvW had been allowed to reach the state of life we call consciousness, we'd be like India or China.

How many of these kids have you personally adopted and helped? I'm dying to hear the answer on this one.

Abortion is the taking of innocent human life. As usual, you make no sense.

I am under no obligation to do anything for those children as a requirement for substantiating the moral correctness of my position. It's called personal responsibility. I will care for the children for which I am responsible for bringing into this world. If everyone did the same, we'd all be OK.

We have plenty of public and private charity to help the poor with their children. I participate in both. End of story.

 

[jasmin]

As usual, those who doubt me do so to their extreme peril. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Looks like the empiric data tend to support me rather than SPN's and Vag's hyper-emotional assumptions.

Here's the money quote:

Through inductive analysis, 13 categories were developed and analyzed in light of related theory. The findings seemed to challenge the assumption that raising a child of rape is a globally negative experience, a re-traumatization

http://gradworks.umi.com/32/06/3206974.html

As usual, those who doubt me do so to their extreme peril.

You make a joke of yourself with each added post!

The study is extremely flawed. These are women who CHOSE to carry the child. Further, it only examines closed cases, in other words, cases where the mother is OK following the trauma, not continuing with therapy. And the best they can do is say it is not a "globally negative experience" to carry the child. So, what percent, in this highly selective group of women who chose to carry the child, found anything positive in the experience?

Very weak. You miss the fact you are supporting entirely women's choice.

I disagree with you vag, after just a few short weeks that child has a heartbeat and brain. Ignoring it is a child is not accurate or honest. But, the child is not viable outside the mother's womb and so the abortion issue comes down to a choice between the mother's life and rights and the unborn child's life and rights. Because the mother is the only one who is directly affected by this decision, she is the only one who has the right and responsibility to make the decision. I think abortion is widely overused because of the 'inconvenience' of having a child, but would never, never, bastardize the wonder and beauty of bringing a child into the world by forcing a rape victim to have a lifelong reminder of the worst experience of her life. I will also not support government efforts to make the life of the unborn, unviable child's life and rights more important than those of the mother.

I also think punishment for child abuse and neglect should be stronger because every mom in the US has had the opportunity to choose to bring that child into the world.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

As usual, those who doubt me do so to their extreme peril.

You make a joke of yourself with each added post! When applied to you, this is an accurate statement.

The study is extremely flawed. Extremely? Why? Because it's inconvenient for you to be confronted with data which contradicts your ASSUMPTIONS?These are women who CHOSE to carry the child. Please enlighten us as to how this study could have been done with any other group? Hmmm?Further, it only examines closed cases, in other words, cases where the mother is OK following the trauma, not continuing with therapy. And the best they can do is say it is not a "globally negative experience" to carry the child. So, what percent, in this highly selective group of women who chose to carry the child, found anything positive in the experience?

Very weak. You miss the fact you are supporting entirely women's choice.
Not weak at all, not when it's among the best hard data we have. What's weak is you operating entirely on your hysterical ASSUMPTIONS and thinking that what data we do have is weak. Beats what you have. PERIOD.

And this is in no way supportive of women's choice. Another one of your wild assumptions.


I disagree with you vag, after just a few short weeks that child has a heartbeat and brain. Ignoring it is a child is not accurate or honest. But, the child is not viable outside the mother's womb and so the abortion issue comes down to a choice between the mother's life and rights and the unborn child's life and rights. Because the mother is the only one who is directly affected by this decision, she is the only one who has the right and responsibility to make the decision. I think abortion is widely overused because of the 'inconvenience' of having a child, but would never, never, bastardize the wonder and beauty of bringing a child into the world by forcing a rape victim to have a lifelong reminder of the worst experience of her life. I will also not support government efforts to make the life of the unborn, unviable child's life and rights more important than those of the mother.

I also think punishment for child abuse and neglect should be stronger because every mom in the US has had the opportunity to choose to bring that child into the world.

You lose on the data as we have it. You lose on logic. You lose from a historical perspective. Do you think that women through the ages have had access to safe abortions to do away with children conceived in rape? Most of those children were carried to term. While many may have been abandoned and left for dead, many were doubtless kept and raised and yes, even LOVED, by their mother and probably even their "adoptive dad".

Oh, and where is the exception clause in the historical Hippocratic oath for rape? Guess He was a misogynist too.

You are being silly and hysterical and your vain attempt to spin data which contradicts your assumptions is a major failure.

 

[Vagitarian]

Abortion is the taking of innocent human life. As usual, you make no sense.

I am under no obligation to do anything for those children as a requirement for substantiating the moral correctness of my position. It's called personal responsibility. I will care for the children for which I am responsible for bringing into this world. If everyone did the same, we'd all be OK.

We have plenty of public and private charity to help the poor with their children. I participate in both. End of story.

Nice dodge studmuffin, too bad you cn't carry a child for 9 months.

 

[Vagitarian]

As usual, those who doubt me do so to their extreme peril.

You make a joke of yourself with each added post!

The study is extremely flawed. These are women who CHOSE to carry the child. Further, it only examines closed cases, in other words, cases where the mother is OK following the trauma, not continuing with therapy. And the best they can do is say it is not a "globally negative experience" to carry the child. So, what percent, in this highly selective group of women who chose to carry the child, found anything positive in the experience?

Very weak. You miss the fact you are supporting entirely women's choice.

I disagree with you vag, after just a few short weeks that child has a heartbeat and brain. Ignoring it is a child is not accurate or honest. But, the child is not viable outside the mother's womb and so the abortion issue comes down to a choice between the mother's life and rights and the unborn child's life and rights. Because the mother is the only one who is directly affected by this decision, she is the only one who has the right and responsibility to make the decision. I think abortion is widely overused because of the 'inconvenience' of having a child, but would never, never, bastardize the wonder and beauty of bringing a child into the world by forcing a rape victim to have a lifelong reminder of the worst experience of her life. I will also not support government efforts to make the life of the unborn, unviable child's life and rights more important than those of the mother.

I also think punishment for child abuse and neglect should be stronger because every mom in the US has had the opportunity to choose to bring that child into the world.

My view is that a fetus is not an actual life until it attains consciousness and is viable outside the womb - until then it's a fertilized egg growing toward supporting life. Thank god we don't have the 45 million uneducated & unwanted people that MFAS thinks can be supported by his donations. What a crock.

If getting to heaven is so much greater than life on earth and if an aborted fetus has a free pass, why would he not want them to be aborted? It's a free pass and a shortcut to paradise.... it just doesn't add up...they are lucky little fuckers.

 

[jasmin]

Seeriously MFAS, so you don't think a mom who has chosen to keep a child might view that pregnancy and child more positively than someone forced to give birth to a child? The study design biases it beyond any ability to provide a conclusion AND the conclusion does not provide percentages of results. All it says is that not every single solitary case of someone keeping the child of rape is completely, totally negative. That is hardly a case to stand on to outlaw abortion in the case of rape.

And no, women have not had access to safe abortions through the ages. But there have been abortions through the ages. In the US, abortions were not deemed illegal prior to 'quickening' until the later 1800s. Prior to Roe v Wade, it has been estimated that over a million abortions per year were performed in the US. Wealthy women had relatively easy access and many other women had 'D and Cs'. It wasn't until 1972 that the supreme court supported the right of couples to use contraceptives! There is strong evidence the number of abortions in the US today is the same or less than the number prior to Roe v Wade but the incidence of death or severe injury from the abortion has significantly improved.

There is also data to suggest that abortion is safest AND used least in countries with greatest access to both abortion and contraceptives.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/10/4/gpr100402.html

There are far more important things to talk about for the upcoming elections.

 

[tinkrbelle]

The first three weeks post-fertilization are pre-embryonic stages.

Yet another good reason RU 486 should be readily available in this country.

I thought it was.

 

[tinkrbelle]

Abortion is the taking of innocent human life. As usual, you make no sense.

I am under no obligation to do anything for those children as a requirement for substantiating the moral correctness of my position. It's called personal responsibility. I will care for the children for which I am responsible for bringing into this world. If everyone did the same, we'd all be OK.

We have plenty of public and private charity to help the poor with their children. I participate in both. End of story.

Really?? I disagree, did you read the latest poverty increases leading to homelessness? Where are all those "public and private charities"? Dont see them running to the rescue.
The problem with your, and the GOPPPERS, arguement- is you all love to preach no abortions, but are not around to pick up the pieces when these out of wedlock, poor mothers give birth to yet another unwanted child. The GOP preaches no abortions, yet they want to cut all the "entitlement programs" that will help support these poor, women with their baby, can't have it both ways.

 

[jasmin]

Really?? I disagree, did you read the latest poverty increases leading to homelessness? Where are all those "public and private charities"? Dont see them running to the rescue.
The problem with your, and the GOPPPERS, arguement- is you all love to preach no abortions, but are not around to pick up the pieces when these out of wedlock, poor mothers give birth to yet another unwanted child. The GOP preaches no abortions, yet they want to cut all the "entitlement programs" that will help support these poor, women with their baby, can't have it both ways.

Many people give less to charity now than in the past because we are forced to give so much through taxes. People feel they have done their part. How many still tithe? When churches were more about helping the community instead of building the biggest facility, when government didn't control states to this level, communities helped more.

However, we can have it both ways. It's called personal, individual responsibility. I don't hold any woman responsibie for pregnancy by rape or incest, obviously, but otherwise, it is a conscious choice. Now we've all been young and dumb, everyone makes horrific mistakes going through life, but that is not society's burden to bear.

What is more ironic is the catholic church and many of those in the pro-life movement wanting to not only end abortion but also all forms of birth control. I can't imagine going backwards to when women had an average of a child a year, whether they could afford them or not, and whether it was healthy for them or not. As someone who got pregnant if my husband looked at me from across the room, I thank my lucky stars I was born after easy access to convenient, effective, and not in the way, birth control.

Oh, and classification of poverty today is nothing like poverty of my parent's generation.

 

[Bubble Burster]

The bottom line is that I am too long in the tooth to trust any of them. Whichever Republican wins the nomination will win my vote. Most of them have parts that I like, and parts that I don't like.

I don't trust Mugwump Romney because, as I have said before, he is too much of a political animal, and he changes his "values" based on what he thinks the public wants to hear.

Perry has too many ideas that I disagree with, but I can live with them. I would rather have him in office because he at least doesn't hide his beliefs or lie about them. He tells you how he comes down on an issue, and if you don't like it, tough shit.

Ron Paul also has that trait, but most of what he believes in is too extreme for me to accept.

Bachman is too much of a whiner.

ONE POSTER SAID HE WOULD RATHER VOTE FOR OBAMA THAN FOR A FLAWWED REPUBLICAN. TO ME THAT IS NOT GOOD REASONING. VOTE FOR THE CANDIDATE WHO BEST FITS YOUR VISION OF AMERICA. AS ONE POSTER SAID, "I WILL HOLD MY NOSE AND VOTE FOR _______" IF SOMEONE CAN FIND THE PERFECT CANDIDATE, SEE IF YOU CAN FIGURE OUT WHICH DIALECTS OF CHINESE HE SPEAKS (ie: Manchurian).

 

[I Love America]

And as I mom, I will tell you it is one of the sickest, most vile, and outright wrong statements ever made. Oh yeah, therapeutic to carry a rapist's child! Sure, and no worries about genetics either! Or how about instead of looking into the sweet face of your child, the face looks like the rapist's? What a hateful, misguided person. BTW, what I have stated about Santorum is correct. You can try to split hairs but what they did is no different than what they protest against. He is unlikely to hold office again. Finally, when a woman is raped, she must be given some control back over her life. It is no politician's right to tell her she must bear this child.

Sorry, but because you possess a vagina, you don't have any unique insights on when life begins.

You still haven't answered my offer. Will you take my deal? Abortion only legal in instances of rape and incest. Illegal in all other instances. Deal?

Rape seems to be your biggest bugaboo, so I am willing to compromise. Are you willing to compromise or are you unwilling to compromise?

 

[jasmin]

Sorry, but because you possess a vagina, you don't have any unique insights on when life begins.

You still haven't answered my offer. Will you take my deal? Abortion only legal in instances of rape and incest. Illegal in all other instances. Deal?

Rape seems to be your biggest bugaboo, so I am willing to compromise. Are you willing to compromise or are you unwilling to compromise?

Women have, and will always have, greater understanding of when life begins. You can downplay it all you want but yet so many conservatives freely say women are more nurturing, should have primary responsibility for childrearing and housekeeping, yet you want to not give them the choices and responsibilities that come with that. As long as that baby is not really a separate entity, able to live outside the mother's body on its own, it will and should remain the mother's decision. Do you even know why abortion became illegal in the first place? It had absolutely nothing to do with the sanctity of life.

And no, I will not support any legislation to restrict abortion. It is the mom's body, the mom's responsibility, and the mom;s choice.

 

[Vagitarian]

Oh, and despite the rhetoric, Perry knows he won't end social security either. Here's his statement about "fixing" it.

"For too long, politicians have been afraid to speak honestly about Social Security. We must have the guts to talk about its financial condition if we are to fix Social Security and make it financially viable for generations to come."

Read more on Newsmax.com: Perry Op-Ed: I'm 'Honest' About Social Security

His idea of fixing it is to give it to the state. So each state would be different? What if you have paid it all your life and want to move?