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Pip/goals/ legal question

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Anonymous

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Work for alcon/Novartis and our year starts in December. Last night we got our goals for dec and jan on only 2 products. Have yet to see our year goals or any goals on other products and we are 5 months into the year. On top of that, my goals for dec jan put me at 90 percent to quota on a chronic drug which means that I will probably not make any money. they did this last year too and the entire sales force did not make any money. they don't release goals until over 5 months into the year after collecting data and you can't catch up. I would like to hire an attorney if ever I get on a pip. Is there a specific attorney that has dealt with Novartis and pips/goals etc?
 






Anonymous said:
Work for alcon/Novartis and our year starts in December. Last night we got our goals for dec and jan on only 2 products. Have yet to see our year goals or any goals on other products and we are 5 months into the year. On top of that, my goals for dec jan put me at 90 percent to quota on a chronic drug which means that I will probably not make any money. they did this last year too and the entire sales force did not make any money. they don't release goals until over 5 months into the year after collecting data and you can't catch up. I would like to hire an attorney if ever I get on a pip. Is there a specific attorney that has dealt with Novartis and pips/goals etc?
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the 2 issues that you mentioned, yearly goals for the PMP (Performance Management Process) and the PIP (Performance Improvement Process) are related but only that they are a facade to make the performance management process give the legal appearance to be more objective and thus less subjective. Both are a result of numerous lawsuits and are thus much less suitable to legal review leading to a positive result for the associate.

The PMP process that you described above, is common the NVS. Just play along and if things are going well you will see no repercussions if if they aren't and you do, just the fact that have a PMP process in place will end or reduce many employment claims. You should comply as much as you can with the PMP process and document your managers and his leadership's failure to comply timely goals as if they screw up and don't exit you using the PIP process then you might have a claim. But just to give you and idea, under the most egregious circumstances I have ever heard of, the associate got 6 weeks of pay as compensation.

If they use the PIP process correctly you will have no recourse. But for exceptions, NVS uses it as a toll to exit people and eliminate or reduce any employment litigation repercussions. It is a well legally well legally tested process and when used properly, will totally protect Novartis.

Good luck.
 




No but the numbers in all divisions of Alcon would warrant a class action. They completely ignore what every other company does to motivate sales reps and instead attempt to use fear and intimidation. If you get one post it BC many would join.
Be careful how much you ask your manager about this. He might realize you aren't happy just to have "ALCON" printed on your business cards and you will be on a PIP
In no time!
 








Anonymous said:
No but the numbers in all divisions of Alcon would warrant a class action. They completely ignore what every other company does to motivate sales reps and instead attempt to use fear and intimidation. If you get one post it BC many would join.
Be careful how much you ask your manager about this. He might realize you aren't happy just to have "ALCON" printed on your business cards and you will be on a PIP
In no time!
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bad management is not a basis for lawsuits. only discriminatory or other obvious illegal or coercion to commit illegal actions are. in fact, treating everyone like shit only proves that they don't treat you, or others in a demographic that describes you (female, older, minority, etc etc) in a discriminatory manner.

the only remedy for what you have described is to leave.

if you are in a "protected class" (some were described above) you will definitely be put on a PIP before you are exited or will be placed into a group that is obviously not only defined by your protected class and laid off with a package. In either case, you have no case.

if you are aware of other, non-employment related illegal activities, then seek a whistle-blower layer.
 




Thank you. All the info is very informative. It is shocking that they can get away with collecting the actuals then give us goals, never giving us a comp plan, publishing and front loading the payouts after collecting actuals for months. It is just total corruption. No one made money last year on our main product but the company hit their goals on that product. Unethical. Thank you for educating us on the legality.
 




Anonymous said:
Thank you. All the info is very informative. It is shocking that they can get away with collecting the actuals then give us goals, never giving us a comp plan, publishing and front loading the payouts after collecting actuals for months. It is just total corruption. No one made money last year on our main product but the company hit their goals on that product. Unethical. Thank you for educating us on the legality.
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Funny how the company (and the SMT / marketing group) makes goals while sales reps don't. POart of the reason for this is a lack of alignment of goals. Sales reps are measured by DDD and script tracking.

Marketing and corporate management types are often evaluated based on ex-factory sales. They have the ability to load the pipeline at year's or quarter's end to hit their numbers. What can you as a rep do when your numbers don't even come in until months after the end of a time period!1
 




Anonymous said:
Funny how the company (and the SMT / marketing group) makes goals while sales reps don't. POart of the reason for this is a lack of alignment of goals. Sales reps are measured by DDD and script tracking.

Marketing and corporate management types are often evaluated based on ex-factory sales. They have the ability to load the pipeline at year's or quarter's end to hit their numbers. What can you as a rep do when your numbers don't even come in until months after the end of a time period!1
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I'd love to see NVS taken to court, forced to open their data collection, collation, and 3rd party reporting systems that they use. I've been told IMS data is off by 10% in Oncology and NVS management isn't willing to pay more to - drill down - for accurate data. It isn't worth the cost to upper management, but to us on the low end - it means everything. That 10% isn't necessarily spread around equally - and irregularities can't be explained. So - we get screwed.
 




Anonymous said:
I'd love to see NVS taken to court, forced to open their data collection, collation, and 3rd party reporting systems that they use. I've been told IMS data is off by 10% in Oncology and NVS management isn't willing to pay more to - drill down - for accurate data. It isn't worth the cost to upper management, but to us on the low end - it means everything. That 10% isn't necessarily spread around equally - and irregularities can't be explained. So - we get screwed.
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Someone is suing them. Discovery is going on now but things take time to work its way through the legal system. This is happening in federal court.
 












Sure, there could be a lawsuit but it couldn't be related to anything described here because there has been nothing illegal described here. If they fuck up all your pay due to bad data there is no discrimination, no fraud, no legal principle that I can think of. It is just bad business and the term for people who reamin at businesses that are badly run is . . loser.

If you leave, don't go into law. You'd starve.
 




I didn't know a company is obligated by law to pay a commission - I thought it was something a company can elect to do or not - and the rules governing a commission can be anything a company wants.

The fact you get screwed out of Prez club or Cornerstone doesn't mean anything legally - you were still paid for the work you did - the discrepancy over numbers isn't a "law" thing is it?
 




Anonymous said:
Sure, there could be a lawsuit but it couldn't be related to anything described here because there has been nothing illegal described here. If they fuck up all your pay due to bad data there is no discrimination, no fraud, no legal principle that I can think of. It is just bad business and the term for people who reamin at businesses that are badly run is . . loser.

If you leave, don't go into law. You'd starve.
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If they use sales numbers to give a rating then use those ratings as a basis for a reduction in force or a termination a lawsuit can be successful because garbage in is garbage out. Sales numbers should be objective but of course they are not here. The perfect explanation for that is how come some president club winner's do not get 3's but reps in the bottom were getting 2's. Just look at Long Island's ratings at the end of 2011. Bad business decisions are not actionable but disparate treatment certainly is actionable. Don't worry I won't starve.
 




Anonymous said:
If they use sales numbers to give a rating then use those ratings as a basis for a reduction in force or a termination a lawsuit can be successful because garbage in is garbage out. Sales numbers should be objective but of course they are not here. The perfect explanation for that is how come some president club winner's do not get 3's but reps in the bottom were getting 2's. Just look at Long Island's ratings at the end of 2011. Bad business decisions are not actionable but disparate treatment certainly is actionable. Don't worry I won't starve.
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There would not be an good employment case if the data were used for a RIF as they can use any data that they want, even bad data, to make general business decisions, even bad business decision that are ultimately unfair.

And your example of the PMP is just ridiculous.

The only way that any US employer can be found to be liable for the results is that if they, with NO BASIS, have employment practices that arbitrarily and capriciously have deleterious effects on a single or in the case of a group of individuals, share a certain demographic classification.

The offer letter that you sign when you join a US company says that you are "Employed at will of the employer". Which means that you, as an individual, can be fired at any time for almost any reason. If you are in a "protected class" (Minority, over 50, disabled) then a little more care will be taken (PIP) and maybe you will be offered a package where you sign a general release so that you cannot sue.

If you are fired in a group, like a RIF, you have almost NO good options as like I said above, unless you, as a group, can claim that they fired you ALL do to some distinguishing characteristic that you ALL EACH share. But that is nothing besides that in any employment law or precedent in the US.

So, they can us any data that they have to make decisions to fire anyone as long as it is applied equally to anyone. Then the only way that you may have a case if you think that they don't use it fairly is to make the case that they used the data against you because you are a member of a protected class.

In your case, if they don't like you because you think that you are an employment lawyer because you slept in the Holiday Inn last night, and fire you. You have no case.

As I said, it isn't against the law for a company to be poorly run, so there would definitely not be wrong be wrong in firing you. You are a complainer, aren't very smart but think that you are.
 




Age protection by federal law starts at 40 not 50. Just because there is employment at will you still can not discriminate. They get away with it because most people will complain but never file a complaint with the EEOC or a lawsuit. You must have received a degree in English based on your ramblings. Have a pleasant day.
 




What does Novartis do about perverts? What about perverts that they pass a long to other companies? Sealed cases? Some perverts must be having a lot of trouble sleeping. The fun has just begun.
 




Get used to it. Alcon will regret being taken over by Novartis. The top execs at Novartis don't know how to run a business. Don't look for new product development. Novartis is not interested in that. They only want to milk the cash coming from the current products..notmake new ones. New product development at Alcon is finished for good. That's the Novartis way.
 




Anonymous said:
What does Novartis do about perverts? What about perverts that they pass a long to other companies? Sealed cases? Some perverts must be having a lot of trouble sleeping. The fun has just begun.
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Big boy. You are constantly on cafe pharma. You thought you would just drive me out. You have affected too many lives. Nothing is sealed. All technology can be traced. Everyone knows what a scum bucket you really are amongst a variety of companies. They kept you hear to cover things up. Your fate is on the way big boy. Have a great weekend.
 




Anonymous said:
Age protection by federal law starts at 40 not 50. Just because there is employment at will you still can not discriminate. They get away with it because most people will complain but never file a complaint with the EEOC or a lawsuit. You must have received a degree in English based on your ramblings. Have a pleasant day.
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of course, when there is discrimination is discrimination, that is called a tautology you fucking moron.

and nothing above spoke of discrimination, just ludicrous whining about bad data and how unfair the pmp system is. but if it makes you feel better to think that you came out of this looking good by finally coming around to agreeing that when there is discrimination then there is, you can keep on bro. it looks like you have it down pat the ol' "soft bigotry of low expectations" deal ya' know, after all, you are a scum bag slinger of worthless pharma hash.
 




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