Merck is your Daddy

During the boceprevir review on Tuesday I heard phrases like “complicated label” and “underpowered” or "not really there" (relating to data for 24 week treatment duration for partial responders and relapsers). [All from FDA Advisory Panel members.]

During the telaprevir review on Wednesday I heard phrases like “complete and easy to understand” relating to trial design and results. I also heard phrases like “need for education” related to the amelioration of the rash side effect.

There is little that can be done (except for perhaps prayer) to make up for Schering-Plough/Merck’s flawed clinical trial design which will likely lead to a complicated label.

[Conversely,] there is much that can be done about educating physicians and patients in the management of rash during the use of telaprevir (indeed that has been done since telaprevir’s P3 dropout rate was 0.8%).

Bottom line – Vertex is better poised with more than a year’s supply of telaprevir stockpiled to sweep up the population of patients previously treated with SOC. Their label will indicate either a 24 week therapy (for partial responders/relapsers) or potentially longer therapy (for null responders). These are the patients that have been sitting on the sideline watching and waiting, following the story closely. These are people who have already experienced the side effects of SOC. I think for the most part that they will opt for telaprevir’s 24 week therapy now instead of waiting for Merck to get a label change later for a less than 48 week therapy.

I also don’t think reimbursement for erythroprotein will be clear-cut, which is a further potential liability that could appear on boceprevir’s label. So yes, Merck might have an advantage in terms of having a well developed marketing capability. They will need it to grab the 20% of the early Hep C market that will come their way under their most optimistic scenario. I think it will be more like 10-15%. Again, much will depend on the label
 






Boceprevir IS a dog...Yes, worse than telaprevir but both of these drugs have just a small window to take the market. Doctors are already planning on a "second round of warehousing" patients because they realize that the next generation of HCV drugs will be cleaner, PO, QD, and peg/rib free. I'm not angry at all :) I'm perfectly happy to watch you flounder when investors begin to shift their money away from Vertex in the near future to other companies that have the above said drugs in their pipelines. This already started at the end of February (and really late summer last year), but I doubt you are smart enough to have seen the inversely proportional changes in the stock price of competitive companies vs VRTX. Money went straight out of VRTX and into the future competition. Sure VRTX is making a nice run in the market now and will in the near future but the point is, it will be short lived. Your HCV pipeline can't match what is coming down the road. Period.

Listen Junior, you have a VERY short period of time to make your money - If you don't know it yet, you soon will. Winners? Yes, Junior, I like your shiny JV trophy, now go play in traffic.

So, I am curious, what companies have the new generation HCV meds?
 






So, I am curious, what companies have the new generation HCV meds?

I can't take that bait. You seem well informed so I am guessing that you probably know which companies I was alluding to.

Yes, Vertex will emerge as the short term winner post-commercialization and then fade into the background of Hep C unless somehow they find themselves in a joint venture with one of the companies you are curious about...and unfortunately this is very unlikely. More likely, but still unlikely, is that J&J wastes it's money on telapravir and Vertex's pipeline through a takeover. Time will tell if the pipeline yields something good, but so far, the Hep C pipeline doesn't like it has a best in class front runner post telapravir.

Cystic Fibrosis is a different story but I'm not sure J&J wants to put up the kind of money it will take for Vertex's pipeline and short term gains it will acquire in the next few years in Hep C.
 






I can't take that bait. You seem well informed so I am guessing that you probably know which companies I was alluding to.

Yes, Vertex will emerge as the short term winner post-commercialization and then fade into the background of Hep C unless somehow they find themselves in a joint venture with one of the companies you are curious about...and unfortunately this is very unlikely. More likely, but still unlikely, is that J&J wastes it's money on telapravir and Vertex's pipeline through a takeover. Time will tell if the pipeline yields something good, but so far, the Hep C pipeline doesn't like it has a best in class front runner post telapravir.

Cystic Fibrosis is a different story but I'm not sure J&J wants to put up the kind of money it will take for Vertex's pipeline and short term gains it will acquire in the next few years in Hep C.

I don't know. Regardless of the analyst, Vertex is always in the top 5 pharma co. buyouts.
 






I don't know. Regardless of the analyst, Vertex is always in the top 5 pharma co. buyouts.

You're right but that made sense last year (and the previous years) when the market cap was under $1Billion. Now it's over $11Billion so those analysts that are talking about VRTX as a buyout target really haven't done the math.
 






You're right but that made sense last year (and the previous years) when the market cap was under $1Billion. Now it's over $11Billion so those analysts that are talking about VRTX as a buyout target really haven't done the math.

GSK, AZ, Novartis, just some of the companies looking for companies with market caps below $20 billion. Sanofi just bought Genzyme for 20 billion and genzyme has nothing.
 






GSK, AZ, Novartis, just some of the companies looking for companies with market caps below $20 billion. Sanofi just bought Genzyme for 20 billion and genzyme has nothing.

True, they are looking but I don't think at Vertex. The valuation of telaprevir has been built into the stock price already (FDA Advisory Panel voted Wed. and the stock didn't flinch Thursday when trading was allowed to continue). VX770 and VX809 look promising but I don't think they are the revenue drivers that the above companies are looking for and neither is VX765 for that matter. From a takeover position, Vertex is bloated and therefore not very appealing. Several years ago, the idea of a Vertex buyout would have made sense but not today.

Having said that, the only scenario I see where Vertex would be bought out in the short term is if one of the companies developing the next generation of HCV drugs (protease/polymerase/NS5A inhibitors etc) decided it wanted Vertex's sales force because it was already established and would help with a nice transition to the new drugs. Again, this is unlikely because the price just isn't worth it but a partnering situation? Maybe...
 






I agree with the previous message. I believe the price of Vertex is to high, and Telaprivir has a window of about two years, along with boceprivir. If the company had a robust pipeline of HCV drugs, then it would be a different story.
 






During the boceprevir review on Tuesday I heard phrases like “complicated label” and “underpowered” or "not really there" (relating to data for 24 week treatment duration for partial responders and relapsers). [All from FDA Advisory Panel members.]

During the telaprevir review on Wednesday I heard phrases like “complete and easy to understand” relating to trial design and results. I also heard phrases like “need for education” related to the amelioration of the rash side effect.

There is little that can be done (except for perhaps prayer) to make up for Schering-Plough/Merck’s flawed clinical trial design which will likely lead to a complicated label.

[Conversely,] there is much that can be done about educating physicians and patients in the management of rash during the use of telaprevir (indeed that has been done since telaprevir’s P3 dropout rate was 0.8%).

Guess you're going have to see what the FDA did your label... Interesting with the uniform Lab testing and uniform stopping rules so now guess what - both drugs have the same complications- NEXT issue!!! Try to bash before you know what happens and you will get burned...

Bottom line – Vertex is better poised with more than a year’s supply of telaprevir stockpiled to sweep up the population of patients previously treated with SOC. Their label will indicate either a 24 week therapy (for partial responders/relapsers) or potentially longer therapy (for null responders). These are the patients that have been sitting on the sideline watching and waiting, following the story closely. These are people who have already experienced the side effects of SOC. I think for the most part that they will opt for telaprevir’s 24 week therapy now instead of waiting for Merck to get a label change later for a less than 48 week therapy.

I also don’t think reimbursement for erythroprotein will be clear-cut, which is a further potential liability that could appear on boceprevir’s label. So yes, Merck might have an advantage in terms of having a well developed marketing capability. They will need it to grab the 20% of the early Hep C market that will come their way under their most optimistic scenario. I think it will be more like 10-15%. Again, much will depend on the label
News FLASH- most doctors use EPO and guess what else- they will need it with your drug too Looks like ANEMIA is an issue with Telaprevir
 






The necessity to use EPO in many boceprevir treated patients not only complicates the therapy but significantly and unnecessarily increases the cost of therapy. In most Western countries, majority of HCV is treated by community-based gastroenterologists which do not typically use EPO in their clinical practice.

One must also remember that the use of EPO to control boceprevir and/or ribavirin-induced anemia is an OFF LABEL use of EPO (the last time I looked) which further complicates both access and treatment. I suspect most community-based physicians would be reluctant to undertake this liability especially given the likely availability of telaprevir which is not plagued with this issue.

Barring a catastrophic event or major Vertex blunder, its looking more and more likely that Vertex will emerge the winner post-commercialization

WOW- you are stupid- guess you didn't realize the Telaprevir label also has a 2-3 fold increase in ANEMIA so guess doctors will use EPO with both drugs... if you had HCV experience you wouldn't have to have things like this remedial issue pointed out to you.
 






how do you write a drug into your label when you didn't use it in your trials. most docs don't want to reduce the riba for anemia, epo would be their option and it would be off label. looks like Vic got it writen into label if needed, or riba reduction. more options with Vic. Merck will be your daddy, and Genentec's too. Arrogant mfers, KOLs are pissed.
 






WOW- you are stupid- guess you didn't realize the Telaprevir label also has a 2-3 fold increase in ANEMIA so guess doctors will use EPO with both drugs... if you had HCV experience you wouldn't have to have things like this remedial issue pointed out to you.

Moron Vertex reps. Have you seen the Vic PI. Look at he % of pats that were below 8.5 and required EPO. LOL. another thing you can't bring up.
 






Moron Vertex reps. Have you seen the Vic PI. Look at he % of pats that were below 8.5 and required EPO. LOL. another thing you can't bring up.

Um.. Another News Flash...MOST if not ALL GI's and community docs aren't quite sure what these weekly "RASH" clinics are-managageable-YEAH RIGHT sounds FUN... At least MD's know how to treat anemia and guess what else TELAPREVIR HAS ANEMIA too- 2-3 fold so don't sell against something you have too not going to work for you!!! CLASS EFFECT- check your PI- oh wait check your PI in a few weeks when it gets approved- you'll be surprised to see the revisions the FDA did to your label...
 
























Omg you guys are done. F all of you that left roche, Gilead and Merck. You are going to get eaten up by the 2 big dogs. Now get out there with your message of "power" and bash lead in. Lol. Your ship is sunk and you haven't even left port. Lmao
 






I will tell you that I am not thirilled that I am co- promoting with these un ethical pieces of shit, they can't sell. From a reps point of view it seems wierd, but from a Merck point of view it is brilliant. For them to come to us and say, hey, we want to partner with you even though they used us in their studies says a lot. Must be something going on we don't know about in the field. The rash must be really bad, if you can only use it for 12 weeks because of the rash GIs will not use it, they don't have the time. Don't give me this "weak" shit, it won't float and the GIs know it. Please keep saying that shit. SJS, thats the jougerknot. How could you just pass a rash along to just a rash, what if your are wrong. A black box is not good for any drug no matter how you look at it. can't wait to see the PI. If we ever do.