I personally can't wait until ex-ISI people like yourself come together at a new company that really makes great changes in healthcare...
Has the culture changed here?
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I personally can't wait until ex-ISI people like yourself come together at a new company that really makes great changes in healthcare...
I was let go by my CSD and his boss. The CSD said two words the entire meeting and his boss pretty much said that I was being let go for the following reason:
They claimed my reported case volumes were "inflated". They said they'd completed an "internal investigation" of my 5 accounts and I had reported over 30 cases that didn't happen. I asked to see this inventory report so we could further discuss. They "didn't have it with them". Oh, okay - that makes sense. Make an accusation, but don't show the proof? I insisted this was an ambush, and if they'd kindly allow me to open my laptop we could get some clarification. I keep meticulous records. I save every file/email/note, etc. I had at least 4 quarters worth of emails from each account's Robotic Coordinator that contained "Weekly reports". Great reps learn quickly to condition the Robotic Coordinator's to email you every Thursday the # of cases (Surgeon/Procedure/Total # of cases) so you can use your selling time training and selling...not tracking down cases! Bottom line: You cannot trust ANYBODY at ISI! I had seen other friends/CAST-mates/"good reps" be accused of this and they were fired. As a protective/proactive measure I thought if I had everything in writing/email, then they can't "fire me". Well, ANYBODY can and WILL get pegged for this same b-%$#@. Even if you think you're teflon, if they want you out...you're out. Period.
Leaving that "meeting", it was like an out-of-body experience. There's even a running joke at ISI that the "body snatchers" must have got him/her (when you're fired). Trust me, it can happen to YOU! No matter HOW talented you are, THEY decide your future and tenure!
The real shame is that all of the hard-work, effort, and results you spent months/years developing then gets called into question. Once you're "body snatched", your name is crap. Your integrity is in the gutter. Nobody calls you, and your phone calls are not returned. It's so sick. You question your moral compass, who your friends are, and if it all was worth it?? But, it's the culture ISI instilled and it's nutured like a badge of honor. You only see just how demented the whole thing is once you're no longer there.
I still keep in touch with about 15 people from my ISI days. 4 are still there. Make no mistake, they are miserable. However, given the economy and personal circumstances (kids & their wives don't work), they're doing what they gotta do. The others either left on their own b/c they were sick of the crap, or they (too) were "Body Snatched". I am always melancholy when I get "the call" from a former friend. It goes like this..."YOU WERE SO RIGHT"! "I should have listened!" It's (typically) a grown man in tears, shock, or compete and utter panic because they just "didn't see it coming". Ture, it's terrifying. They've just been initiated into a really unfortunate club and they need a friend who will just let them vent and be there to "talk them off the ledge". I have to fight the urge to say "I tried to warn you". Or the god-awful - I TOLD YOU SO! So, CP readers/posters. I told you so.
It's not urband legend, and the people ISI forces out are not losers/cheaters/slackers...we're just put out to pasture....and there are no consequences for them.
Move on, find a new job, spend time with your loved ones, and feel read CP and thank the heavens above YOU'RE OUT OF THE HELLHOLE and there IS life after ISI.
Now go sell something! HA!
What ever happened to that hot chick who covered the accounts in Destin FL? Little blonde. Another body snatching ?
Quality of new reps is hilarious. Some guy from the south with only pharma experience. Hahaha. Useless.
I was let go by my CSD and his boss. The CSD said two words the entire meeting and his boss pretty much said that I was being let go for the following reason:
They claimed my reported case volumes were "inflated". They said they'd completed an "internal investigation" of my 5 accounts and I had reported over 30 cases that didn't happen. I asked to see this inventory report so we could further discuss. They "didn't have it with them". Oh, okay - that makes sense. Make an accusation, but don't show the proof? I insisted this was an ambush, and if they'd kindly allow me to open my laptop we could get some clarification. I keep meticulous records. I save every file/email/note, etc. I had at least 4 quarters worth of emails from each account's Robotic Coordinator that contained "Weekly reports". Great reps learn quickly to condition the Robotic Coordinator's to email you every Thursday the # of cases (Surgeon/Procedure/Total # of cases) so you can use your selling time training and selling...not tracking down cases! Bottom line: You cannot trust ANYBODY at ISI! I had seen other friends/CAST-mates/"good reps" be accused of this and they were fired. As a protective/proactive measure I thought if I had everything in writing/email, then they can't "fire me". Well, ANYBODY can and WILL get pegged for this same b-%$#@. Even if you think you're teflon, if they want you out...you're out. Period.
Leaving that "meeting", it was like an out-of-body experience. There's even a running joke at ISI that the "body snatchers" must have got him/her (when you're fired). Trust me, it can happen to YOU! No matter HOW talented you are, THEY decide your future and tenure!
The real shame is that all of the hard-work, effort, and results you spent months/years developing then gets called into question. Once you're "body snatched", your name is crap. Your integrity is in the gutter. Nobody calls you, and your phone calls are not returned. It's so sick. You question your moral compass, who your friends are, and if it all was worth it?? But, it's the culture ISI instilled and it's nutured like a badge of honor. You only see just how demented the whole thing is once you're no longer there.
I still keep in touch with about 15 people from my ISI days. 4 are still there. Make no mistake, they are miserable. However, given the economy and personal circumstances (kids & their wives don't work), they're doing what they gotta do. The others either left on their own b/c they were sick of the crap, or they (too) were "Body Snatched". I am always melancholy when I get "the call" from a former friend. It goes like this..."YOU WERE SO RIGHT"! "I should have listened!" It's (typically) a grown man in tears, shock, or compete and utter panic because they just "didn't see it coming". Ture, it's terrifying. They've just been initiated into a really unfortunate club and they need a friend who will just let them vent and be there to "talk them off the ledge". I have to fight the urge to say "I tried to warn you". Or the god-awful - I TOLD YOU SO! So, CP readers/posters. I told you so.
It's not urband legend, and the people ISI forces out are not losers/cheaters/slackers...we're just put out to pasture....and there are no consequences for them.
Move on, find a new job, spend time with your loved ones, and feel read CP and thank the heavens above YOU'RE OUT OF THE HELLHOLE and there IS life after ISI.
Now go sell something! HA!
The most accurate assessment of getting "body snatched" by these ass clowns ever. Same thing happened to me... After 7 years drinking the cool aid... Provided no proof, allowed no discussion, and just said "see ya".
Sounds like the same old place I left after just a year. I was also doing well had closed a bunch of systems and then I was just dropped. They did me a favor.
Managers have to follow orders, even if decision is BS. Lots of options in etrade account that people don't want to jeopardize by putting a target on their back.
True? In my subjective opinion. I have 3 phenomenal accounts in a rural territory in the Southeast Region. I've been a CSR for 2 years now. I have a great Clinical Sales Manager and Clinical Director. My CSM comes to my accounts with me a couple days a month at most. I've made over 225K so far this year with December income still to go. I'm not on call nights and weekends anymore (came from Boston Sci Cardiac Pacemakers). I have great local region teammates and I am more bought in to the value of this technology every day. Not because of what management says but what surgeons in my accounts say day in and day out.
There have been lots of great posts from probably great ex-ISI reps on this thread with potentially very valid negative points about working for ISI. I feel sorry for what happened in their situations and am annoyed at some of the managers that hurt our reputation and force great people out for shady reasons.
However, I have never been happier in my career in healthcare sales. As with just about any sales company, you really need to find out all you can about the manager interviewing you before you accept a position with this company. I guess I got lucky. My CSM is not a micromanager at all. We are all accountable for hitting our number each quarter, but I do not feel micromanged at all and have never felt like I needed to break ethical code to do that. Luckily, my manager was a rep before he was a manager and understands my job as well as I do and knows that micromanagement is not helpful.
The comments and posts from reps that no longer work for ISI may be valid, but they're subjective opinions too and they don't represent all of us. Keep that in mind. I used to come to CP frequently a few years ago but now remember why I stopped checking in very often. Hopefully this info helps a little bit but if you dont know the ISI folks in your area and use CP complaints as a resource, you may be getting unreliable info.
Totally understood. However, keep in mind you've only been there 2 years. That's not exactly what most of us would call "tenured". Kindly check back in to CP after the 4th quarter case #s are entered. Please let us know if any of your team/region/CAST-Mates have been "body snatched". It typically happens within the 2.5 year - 4 year sweet spot. They'll just "disappear" a day or two after the end of a quarter. Poof! Gone.
You'll wonder what happened to them...or you may not even know they're gone until the WWSM. You'll look for them at breaks or want to grab a beer with them at night. You'll then come to realize they're gone. Glad to hear you have a CSM that's not riding you like a surfboard. You're luckier than most power ball winners! Most CSM's spend their time justifiying their positions. They don't have enough to do so they call/hassle/micromanage their reps. Just keep in mind, if YOUR CSM gets body-snatched, you may end up with a CSM that has a completely different management philosophy. You've been warned!
You'll wonder what happened to them...or you may not even know they're gone until the WWSM. You'll look for them at breaks or want to grab a beer with them at night. You'll then come to realize they're gone. Glad to hear you have a CSM that's not riding you like a surfboard. You're luckier than most power ball winners! Most CSM's spend their time justifiying their positions. They don't have enough to do so they call/hassle/micromanage their reps. Just keep in mind, if YOUR CSM gets body-snatched, you may end up with a CSM that has a completely different management philosophy. You've been warned!
Some interested points here from current and former reps. To the former reps, I envy you. I’ve been with the company several years now and have watched it go downhill year after year. I have stayed for one reason: my options. Now that I have sold the majority of them it is time to move on. To the southeast rep, I wish you all the best. I have heard some good things about the leadership teams of the southeast and south central regions from a few reps still left from my training class (3 of them total to be exact). Other regions in the US are a different story. The ride alongs and conference calls /CSM calls 3 to 4 times a day mentioned above are accurate for most regions. I’ve witnessed great reps run out of the company by managers/directors who feel intimidated by them. People ask me all the time to describe the culture here and I would not sell this position to any of my colleagues in other companies. Years ago it was worth it, now that I have a wife and kids (that I don’t see except for weekends) it is a different story. I’ve had 9 CSMs in my time with Intuitive, 2 are still with the company. The other 7 were fired, demoted, or better yet demoted then fired within 2 months. I’ve seen territories turned over with 4 to 5 different reps. Hospitals don’t hold us to the same caliber they used to. They see a new Intuitive rep every year with less and less clinical and business skills. Someone mentioned marketing rep above, that is what this job has become. If you are young, in pharma and still single this would be worth the jump for a few years to get into device sales. You’ll be tortured, but it is a step above pharma. To the original poster, recruiters are like us in sales they are looking to close a deal. They will tell you anything to proceed in the interview process. Ask the recruiter to put you in touch with reps who have been here a while, talk with them before going on the CSM interview. Most of the recruiters work with CSMs across the US, and should have contact information for the clinical reps. If they can’t give you 4 to 5 names to talk with, that should be a major red flag. Best of luck in what you decide to do.
Nice post! It really was a great place....MANY years ago. However, greed, ego and intimidation have completely become the new normal.
You just don't see it until you're out. Glad my options provided me with a great house and lifestyle. Now I enjoy a job/culture/company that I'm proud to be a part of! It really has gone downhill at ISI...amazing they'd sink to hiring fresh out-of pharma/dental/copier sales people for such a fast-paced, clinical position. Perhaps some "newbies" can handle it, I know I couldn't have at that age! My inexperience would have left me "deer in the headlights"!! Just like many of my CAST-mates were!! The legacy ISI was once known for has changed. And it's NOT PRETTY!
You just don't see it until you're out. Glad my options provided me with a great house and lifestyle. Now I enjoy a job/culture/company that I'm proud to be a part of! It really has gone downhill at ISI...amazing they'd sink to hiring fresh out-of pharma/dental/copier sales people for such a fast-paced, clinical position. Perhaps some "newbies" can handle it, I know I couldn't have at that age! My inexperience would have left me "deer in the headlights"!! Just like many of my CAST-mates were!! The legacy ISI was once known for has changed. And it's NOT PRETTY!
How about hiring a CSR in Texas that previously sold heating and air conditioning...... Ponder that one for a while!! The way this company is going, he will likely be a CSM in 9 months.
What's his name b/c I know a bunch of those guys?
Don't remember. It came out in an email announcement. One of about 500 I get per day. If you know a bunch of the guys in Texas, I am sure you will figure it out.
Three years ago my friend, who is an OB/GYN and early Da Vinci adopter, connected me with her Intuitive sales manager, and we had a phone interview. She asked me how old I was (which was 42 at the time), and told me that she only hires people in her 20s. I couldn't believe she said this out loud! She also told me she doesn't hire people with a pharma background (despite the fact that she hired one of my pharma colleagues and the fact that I was in hospital sales for four years). This interview experience was simply disgusting, and I no longer have respect for the company.
A 42 year old career pharma rep? This is not the company for you and that's ok! It's not "simply disgusting". It just wouldn't be a good fit. Why waste your time and ours. I spent a couple years in pharma right out of college and then advanced into med device sales with Boston Scientific and Stryker. I spent 5 years working hard in the OR and learning how to be successful in that environment. I've had 3 great years so far w ISI as a Clinical Rep and am glad I didn't come here right out of pharma. I realize we have hired a few drug reps over the past couple years but they are exceptions to the usual rule.
The culture HAS changed here over the past year or so. We've hired better managers and promoted more from within as opposed to always going to other companies (i.e. Covidien, Ethicon, Medtronic....) for management talent. I believe we have a long way to go in some regions and I bet most of the negative ranting on this thread comes from those regions. I work in the Mountain Region and know that the SouthEast and SouthCentral regions also have significantly improved their tenure and culture. Those regions have excellent clinical teams and always seem to be the ones recognized at meetings.
My advice if you're looking to join our sales team is to find out all you can about the Clinical Sales Manager in that region and the team's performance over the past year. Don't take what a lot of ex-employees on this thread have said and write off ISI in general. I have loved it here for the past 3 years and hope to stay for a long time.
Don't worry....you'll be let go soon. You're in the sweet spot...don't say we didn't warn you!
What's the bias against pharma reps? And who has just one career these days?
First of all, I'm not a "career" pharma rep; I'm an MFT who spent many years diagnosing and treating patients with mental disorders. I worked with physicians on a peer level. Also, running a private, cash-pay therapy practice requires extensive selling.
Second, I sold complex infused products to hospitals for four years. I worked with high-level hospital administrators and chiefs of departments and spent a lot of time in the cath lab. I placed 10 products on hospital formularies. I received multiple promotions based on sales.
There are smart, driven people in pharma. Anyone who writes them all off is missing out.
So tell me, what's the pharma bias all about? And why do you need to be in your twenties to work at Intuitive?
First of all, I'm not a "career" pharma rep; I'm an MFT who spent many years diagnosing and treating patients with mental disorders. I worked with physicians on a peer level. Also, running a private, cash-pay therapy practice requires extensive selling.
Second, I sold complex infused products to hospitals for four years. I worked with high-level hospital administrators and chiefs of departments and spent a lot of time in the cath lab. I placed 10 products on hospital formularies. I received multiple promotions based on sales.
There are smart, driven people in pharma. Anyone who writes them all off is missing out.
So tell me, what's the pharma bias all about? And why do you need to be in your twenties to work at Intuitive?
Sorry, but there are a myriad of legit and reasonable explanations senior reps are insulted and biased against hiring pharma reps with no OR experience straight into ISI! These toddlers need to go to Covidien, Ethicon, BSC, or another great device training program so they can cut their baby teeth!!
In the Northeast, a 26-year pharma rep (female) was hired as a Clinical Sales Associate. NOTE: NOT a CSR-role, a JUNIOR role in which she was "passed around" to all the other CSRs who had a million other things to do instead of training a newbie! Granted, she was nice enough - but she had ZERO device training, knowledge or experience. It didn't help that she looked young (baby face) -so she looked 20!! It looked like all the reps were allowing a little sister or in some cases (daughter) to tag-along on surgeries. Green as green could be - she didn't know whom to speak with about getting scrubs, access, surgical schedules, credentialling info, access to RepTrax or whatever vendor system was used...Seriously....HOW can you justify the TIME spent on training this new hire when there MUST be more qualified reps that interviewed?
Early on, while observing cases at a highly regarded (flagship) teaching institution, she admitted that she had NO clue what a sterile field was before coming to ISI! Seriously, that's just unacceptable. To be THAT in over your head? That's not fair to anyone! WHY would ISI want to set her up for failure like that? The surgeons were pissed, the robotic team/coordinator felt like THEY were un-important since they were given such a rookie rep! And let's remember - at the end of the day - it's the PATIENT and family that deserve to have a qualified/competent/CLINICAL expert in the case. NOT someone who can't identify what's sterile or where to stand in a case observation.
So, that's an assessment of how some pharma reps can't hack the CLINICAL Sale. Shall we now bullet point the incompetence on the CAPITAL sale?? Seriously, selling drugs/dinner programs is NOT a CAPITAL sales process. Period. Unless you've actually been a hunter/farmer/qualifier of leads - how the *&^% are these folks going to help collaborate with the the ASM/ASD to justify costs/upgrades to the health system's CEO/CFO/CMO/Etc? Pharma folks JUST don't have the chops/best practices to sell to these folks. Period.
If ISI continues to hire straight from Pharma reps, they'll reap what they sow. They really should hire reps with at least 2-3 solid years of device experience first. Sound investments that have properly set expectations typically pay off.
In the Northeast, a 26-year pharma rep (female) was hired as a Clinical Sales Associate. NOTE: NOT a CSR-role, a JUNIOR role in which she was "passed around" to all the other CSRs who had a million other things to do instead of training a newbie! Granted, she was nice enough - but she had ZERO device training, knowledge or experience. It didn't help that she looked young (baby face) -so she looked 20!! It looked like all the reps were allowing a little sister or in some cases (daughter) to tag-along on surgeries. Green as green could be - she didn't know whom to speak with about getting scrubs, access, surgical schedules, credentialling info, access to RepTrax or whatever vendor system was used...Seriously....HOW can you justify the TIME spent on training this new hire when there MUST be more qualified reps that interviewed?
Early on, while observing cases at a highly regarded (flagship) teaching institution, she admitted that she had NO clue what a sterile field was before coming to ISI! Seriously, that's just unacceptable. To be THAT in over your head? That's not fair to anyone! WHY would ISI want to set her up for failure like that? The surgeons were pissed, the robotic team/coordinator felt like THEY were un-important since they were given such a rookie rep! And let's remember - at the end of the day - it's the PATIENT and family that deserve to have a qualified/competent/CLINICAL expert in the case. NOT someone who can't identify what's sterile or where to stand in a case observation.
So, that's an assessment of how some pharma reps can't hack the CLINICAL Sale. Shall we now bullet point the incompetence on the CAPITAL sale?? Seriously, selling drugs/dinner programs is NOT a CAPITAL sales process. Period. Unless you've actually been a hunter/farmer/qualifier of leads - how the *&^% are these folks going to help collaborate with the the ASM/ASD to justify costs/upgrades to the health system's CEO/CFO/CMO/Etc? Pharma folks JUST don't have the chops/best practices to sell to these folks. Period.
If ISI continues to hire straight from Pharma reps, they'll reap what they sow. They really should hire reps with at least 2-3 solid years of device experience first. Sound investments that have properly set expectations typically pay off.
It's funny you have background diagnosing mental disorders, and now work at ISI. This should be a target rich environment for you.