April 16, 2012 US Supreme Court Oral Day of Vindication

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Anonymous

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Today, the US Supreme Court heard oral arguements about the overtime class action lawsuit against GSK, primarily, and secondarily Pfizer Inc, for example. The pharmaceutical industry is about to be spaked, as it were. In fact June will mark real justice where individual representatives' rights and just wage will be validated. Until now, the industry has been given a pass. In fact, Justice Kagan exclaimed, the industry has been given a "gift" for all the years the sales reps were exempt from overtime pay.
 




A lawyer representing the plaintiffs said drug representatives can't be placed under the outside-sales exemption because they don't actually sell medicines since federal law prohibits physicians from making any binding commitments to the drug representatives who visit them. However, a lawyer for GlaxoSmithKline said that drug representatives "were hired for a sales job. They were given sales training. They attend sales conferences. They are assigned to sales territory, and they are evaluated and compensated as sales people." A court filing by the pharmaceutical industry suggested that requiring overtime pay for these workers could impose billions of dollars of potential liability on the industry.

Commenting on the arguments, Justice Antonin Scalia noted that pharmaceutical sales may function differently than sales in other industries, but "these people look like salesmen to me." Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg added that the drug representatives can spend part of their time promoting drugs over golf or dinner and questioned "would the time on the golf course get time-and-a-half?"
 




If you can't promote head-to-head to compare/contrast and highlight advantages or benefits of your products to market competition then it's not sales! Period.

Pfizer (under CIA) doesn't sell anything.
 




In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not a Rep, but I'm married to one.

IMHO, the Reps are going to win this fight. Rep's won in Arizona, The US Dept of Labor agrees Rep's should not be exempt due to the fact they dont actually sell product. Rep's simply promote product to someone who doesnt purchase the product they're promoting.

While it may seem like a good thing to be paid OT for hours worked beyond 40, there may be adverse consequences. If Rep's are reclassified by their respective employers as non-exempt, that will cost employers a huge sum of money. (Retroactive OT pay may have to be paid in addition to OT hours worked going forward.)

The question then becomes can pharma companies afford to take that hit? Will they react and try to mitigate it, and if so, how will they do that? My guess is they'd initially react by shrinking their salesforce. Certainly, they could restrict OT. All they have to do is say nobody can work OT without prior management authorization. Or just eliminate it entirely.
 




LMAO - How many of you jokers work 40+ hours a week? You might have a dinner program a few times a year and get home at 9:00. This suit just shows you the amount of lazy idiots that pharma has hired over the years which help lead to its demise. If the plaintiffs win, watch everybody get fired.
 




Anonymous said:
A lawyer representing the plaintiffs said drug representatives can't be placed under the outside-sales exemption because they don't actually sell medicines since federal law prohibits physicians from making any binding commitments to the drug representatives who visit them. However, a lawyer for GlaxoSmithKline said that drug representatives "were hired for a sales job. They were given sales training. They attend sales conferences. They are assigned to sales territory, and they are evaluated and compensated as sales people." A court filing by the pharmaceutical industry suggested that requiring overtime pay for these workers could impose billions of dollars of potential liability on the industry.

Commenting on the arguments, Justice Antonin Scalia noted that pharmaceutical sales may function differently than sales in other industries, but "these people look like salesmen to me." Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg added that the drug representatives can spend part of their time promoting drugs over golf or dinner and questioned "would the time on the golf course get time-and-a-half?"
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Promoting drugs on a golf course? What is this 2001? That ended well over a decade ago. Irrelevant comment to put on CP and irrelevant for Ginsburg to bring up, if she did.

Drug companies are going to have to pay. There is no doubt. Every RM I ever worked for specifically made each rep sign minimum job requirements which included being in the field from 8-5. I'm sure the plaintiffs have multiple copies of these. Which, if you are counting is 9 hours already. If you add POA's, weekend local conferences, dinner programs (which while fun at times are definitely still work), random DM assignments at the last minute like everything else they send, weekly reports, expense reports (not on company time), emails (not on company time), and DM assigned POA projects pharma is going to lose.

To the last poster.. they are going to shrink their workforce??? what do you think they have doing for the past 10 years already? Firing older expensive employees and hiring newbies and contract salesforces. I understand you are concerned for your spouses career but the writing is on the wall.
 




Anonymous said:
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm not a Rep, but I'm married to one.

IMHO, the Reps are going to win this fight. Rep's won in Arizona, The US Dept of Labor agrees Rep's should not be exempt due to the fact they dont actually sell product. Rep's simply promote product to someone who doesnt purchase the product they're promoting.

While it may seem like a good thing to be paid OT for hours worked beyond 40, there may be adverse consequences. If Rep's are reclassified by their respective employers as non-exempt, that will cost employers a huge sum of money. (Retroactive OT pay may have to be paid in addition to OT hours worked going forward.)

The question then becomes can pharma companies afford to take that hit? Will they react and try to mitigate it, and if so, how will they do that? My guess is they'd initially react by shrinking their salesforce. Certainly, they could restrict OT. All they have to do is say nobody can work OT without prior management authorization. Or just eliminate it entirely.
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Change has already taken place; a 44% increase for the CEO and a decreased severanace package, no defined benefit in retirement and no health care for new hires. The industry's retribution will be much more swift as June rolls around the corner.
 












How did "Golfing Outings" enter into the Rep's, lawyers vocabulary??? That was really stupid.

We haven't seen golf outings in years and even so, not everyone played even when it was mandatory.

Pharma reps may indeed "look" like salespeople. But it's a Fact that they are NOT selling products or making decisions about their territory or presentations.
 












You dimwits do realize that if you win this suit, the pharma industry is going to completely restructure they way they pay you...bye-bye bonuses, tracking your time spent working and on what to the SECOND, ....be careful what you wish for...
 




Anonymous said:
You dimwits do realize that if you win this suit, the pharma industry is going to completely restructure they way they pay you...bye-bye bonuses, tracking your time spent working and on what to the SECOND, ....be careful what you wish for...
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Guess what, other industries offer bonuses to ppl that are eligible for overtime. And they suck, how has your bonus been lately. My guess is it sucks.

Also, they already track what you do to the second. you just don't realize it. everytime you use que, everytime you enter a call, email, do an expense report, etc, etc.

Wake up.
 




Anonymous said:
You dimwits do realize that if you win this suit, the pharma industry is going to completely restructure they way they pay you...bye-bye bonuses, tracking your time spent working and on what to the SECOND, ....be careful what you wish for...
Click to expand...

Most people in the suit don't work for pharma anymore. They rode the gravy train, got let go, and now are hoping for one more handout.

I've never heard one rep in recent years complain about rep hours. They know better.
 




Anonymous said:
LMAO - How many of you jokers work 40+ hours a week? You might have a dinner program a few times a year and get home at 9:00. This suit just shows you the amount of lazy idiots that pharma has hired over the years which help lead to its demise. If the plaintiffs win, watch everybody get fired.
Click to expand...


Back in the days of launching Lipitor and Viagra many of us worked 50 hours a week, when you include the evening paperwork that had to be done at home. There was NO WiFi then, only dial up. Also, there were more LAT meetings, more POA"s, more training meetings and at least One Dinner Program a week.
 




totally understand your desire for the lawsuit to not affect your current job but those of us don't see it as a handout. It's compensation well over-due. in fact, if I had my say I'd ask for it plus interest.

It's a shame that market dynamics, greedy execs, and a bad economy have changed the job and hemmed in the reps that are still currently working. I think it's a good job that has a purpose but I don't feel bad for the companies getting hammered for taking advantage of people.
 




Has anyone ever examined how companies actually settle huge class action lawsuits? The vast majority of the time, the company agrees to pay some huge dollar figure. Then the lawyers take their cut. That is usually 50-70% of the settlement amount. The original plantiffs get a nice cut and the rest is divided amongst the remaining plantiffs. Here is the kicker, the defendants often negotiate some type of cash equivalent. For example in a class action law suit filed against Sears Auto, the company agreed to pay defendants millions...wait or it... in Sears discount coupons equaling the cash value.

So while you are sitting around waiting for a check, it's more likely a bunch of lawyers will make a lot of cash and you will probably get an Rx discount card good for 10% off Pfizer products for life.

Cheers.
 




It the gov. taking care of their own.I.E. lawyers. This conutry is corrupt and it is startin gto show it's ugly head. The media is controlled, just imagine what has gone on in the form of trips and gifts to gov. and special intrest groups that we will never hear about. Must be nice to be a lobbyist. Do we have one for Pharma. Reps?
 




Anonymous said:
Has anyone ever examined how companies actually settle huge class action lawsuits? The vast majority of the time, the company agrees to pay some huge dollar figure. Then the lawyers take their cut. That is usually 50-70% of the settlement amount. The original plantiffs get a nice cut and the rest is divided amongst the remaining plantiffs. Here is the kicker, the defendants often negotiate some type of cash equivalent. For example in a class action law suit filed against Sears Auto, the company agreed to pay defendants millions...wait or it... in Sears discount coupons equaling the cash value.

So while you are sitting around waiting for a check, it's more likely a bunch of lawyers will make a lot of cash and you will probably get an Rx discount card good for 10% off Pfizer products for life.

Cheers.
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This is not true, the law firms will achieve no more than a 33.33% not the identified 50-70%.
 




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