Age discrimination rampant.

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"Back in the day there was something called consultative selling, and it was the most powerful marketing tool ever created. That is what I am hiring for, not age per se, but ever since pharma went to the share of voice and call frequency BS, consultative selling went the way of the dodo bird so people much younger than that don't have the skill set. Right around the time pharma got obsesses with share of voice they started to lose access to physician offices. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I likewise want people who can communicate in writing, but that requires the ability to write in complete sentences, with properly spelled words, rather that some "leet speak" that is the product of too many text messages. Professionals still follow simple courtesies like sending follow-up letters, you know, the kind with an actual stamp in the corner. It is still the best investment in customer engagement that 49 cents can buy.

Finally, there is just good old fashioned experience that you only get with 20-25 years in the field. The people I am talking about have succeeded multiple times, but they have failed miserably too and have the battle scars to prove it. You can always tell the pioneers because they are the ones with arrows in their back. If you think you can launch a complex system sale in the current healthcare environment, get buy in from the physicians, get buy in from the hospital, get buy in from the hospital group that owns the hospital, and convince the payors who foot the bill without that level of experience then you are delusional. It will be tough enough with the most professional and polished team that can be found."

Now that's what I'm talking about! I remember the 30y.o. manager wannabe who bragged that his whole district had really embraced the new "show up and throw up" sales call. He was a total ass and so was his DM. Then there were the many times that we tried to help management understand that only one rep was needed in the territory promoting (product X), yet they continued the 2 rep/ territory model plus other ancillary company people trying to get time with same targets until doors closed and we all had less access. I cannot even count the number of times my eminently promotable MBA-driven KAM spewed his litany of trendy "business speak" buzz words and catch phrases. Never knew who it was that got impressed by that routine. Thank goodness for all the hard-working, field reps and good DMs who I met over the years who tried hard to deliver the best service, most accurate & relevant information, and solid integrity-backed professional behavior to our customers.
So when a hiring manager has a 57-yr old candidate in the interview who can demonstrate a career of delivering "all the right stuff" and no other resume in the pile is as qualified, how does that HM decide to ignore those facts and choose someone else?
 






Good thread. I just got laid off today. Not a single communication that anything was coming. So, I am caught a bit unprepared. Kind of silly these days. We should always have an updated resume' and be aware of what's available. I worry about age discrimination. I think others have elucidated it well. It is probably a combination of money, low expectations and worries on the part of a hiring manager. I also think it is part of the short term limited thinking of upper management and especially the consultants like the infamous ZS Associates.

When I started about three decades ago reps were hired for life. Many retired rather wealthy. You would bleed your company colors and logos. You would usually see a perfect cross section of ages from brand new to near retirement. Lots of great advice I can still remember from the oldest guys. It was long term relationships and every office and doctor knew all their major reps. Reps came in with multiple products and we detailed constantly from clinicals. Pfizer versus Merck was like Green Bay versu Cleveland. Good fun but serious rivalry and love for their team. Not so anymore. Anyone has worked for everyone and friendships far outweigh company.

Offices have changed dramatically and a lot of it was the stupid, short sighted reach and frequency. Marketing just wanted to hear key phrases repeated back in focus groups. It got very shallow. Offices tolerated it for awhile and we started hiring shallow, bad, not-so-dedicated types en masse, too. I probably do not need to elucidate but many of the crappy weak managers from that transition are at the top, now.

I think it leads to not valuing what I would call traditional skill sets. Combine that with new tough office realities, insurance/formulary realities, a new generation of pharma-hostile new docs who never meet a rep in school and it makes it tough for all. It is far harder and more conditional to move products.

I just worked for a company that was really neutral on age. We had a great cross section of smart energetic people who really like what we do. It was a small company, though. Virtually everyone was what I called a Big-Pharma refugee of Pfizer, GSK and the likes...and hated that model. We were bought out and then pretty much gutted from top to bottom. But, it was good for about five years and I actually looked forward to work and my customers. I had amazing independence on where to go and who to see. I was adding about ten new prospective offices when I got canned today.

I personally am going to hope there are some more like my last company. They are not in the big companies for sure, but there are lots of smaller upstarts who may have similar "refugee" management or at least decent people. I personally believe the skill sets valued in this thread may be more necessary than ever. It is more one-on-one and getting past or mitigating formulary-insurance issues. There are products and services that need a case to be made much like a legal argument with business analyses.

This is where our long history, veteran-of-many-battles, and patience should shine, I hope. If not, I will need to find another line of work. It is hard to start over at my age and I actually like what I do, why we do it and the great physicians (and their underpaid MA's)who themselves are persevering in a generally unsavory environment, themselves.

I have to believe there are some companies out there looking for those things, otherwise I will end up on some of the antidepressants I used to sell.

Best of luck to everyone...and congrats on a lifetime of good solid work.
 






(Disclaimer: If you are a hiring manager you need to read this message tread. Just look at the level of maturity in communication versus other bitch and moan treads that are so common on CP. Just from reading this tread I would hire any of these “experienced” folks in a heartbeat. Want to build up a sales organization with real “tested” sales people/managers who can think on their feet, appreciate their job, know how to get things done…well don’t discount/discard what they can offer.)

Now with that being said I fully understand what each of you are going through. This is about age but also the mentality of the industry as a whole. At 59, good or bad, I have seen the industry change with each passing year. I started out carrying my detail bag long ago with Roerig Division of Pfizer and worked my way up to C-Level (Vice President, COO and CEO). I did not jump around from company to company, never asked for a raise, loved the “selling” aspect of the job, and more importantly got the job done whatever the hours it took. I loved selling a detail bag of multiple products and newly launched ones too. (Oh, those were the good old days.)

Today pharma works in “pods”, sell a single product, are lead in many cases with inexperienced managers who are more into the label of “manager” than actually being a good manager, work the job like “the best part time job in the world” (something that is REALLY abused), place importance on number of “catering” jobs they can cram into a call cycle, no real “ownership/responsibility” within a territory, and firing “bad apples” is not so much about sales performance but rather what HR can gather in “paperwork” to pull the trigger.

The bigger problem in the industry is that experience (that of building a solid bench, working your way up the ladder) has been displaced with lawyers, VC consultants and MBA’s running things that have NEVER been groomed in the field to carry those valuable experiences forward.

They wonder why so many physicians are “no see” or are hard to see and attempt to devise a selling message. (Tip: Stop having “pods” descend upon them weekly with the same message from a “Ken and Barbie” overpriced food cater. EVERYONE does it!!!)

The industry has seen massive layoffs (of good, experienced professionals), and a big rise in contact selling organizations (hired with more catering specialists). Bottom line is that the model if broken. Instead of using common sense selling the industry has turned into lemmings following the cue of their competitors no matter how flawed it is. They expand, we expand. They use POD selling, we have to use it. They focus on one product, we too have to. I could go on and on…

I hate to say it but the days of being an experienced pharma representative with a touch of gray is over until the industry has a “come to Jesus” moment – and it does not look like it will happen. I’ve fought the battles and sorry to say that the lawyers, consultants and MBA’s that I alluded to earlier win the debate no matter what hard data is presented.

For those sales/manager veterans looking all I can say is that I really wish them the best of luck. It really is the industries’ loss for not hiring you. Those people that I have worked with over the years – well, some have landed on their feet and others have not. Some are working for health firms/chains promoting men’s/woman’s health, obesity, diabetes, etc. and love it (best thing that has ever happened to them/glad they are out of pharma), consultants, university drug development/commercialization organizations, small newly formed pharma companies, etc. Only a very few have gotten back to pharma sales I’m sad to say.

I’m of the mindset today that real experience and good selling abilities in this industry and many others no longer matters. Please read all the messages on this tread…a lot of wisdom, common sense, reality being posted. And best of luck to all!
 






With a manager like the previous poster turnover in a district full of good people would be zero.
Thank you for sharing your obviously well-grounded perspective.
So at that age, what to do?
Spend a year to take a position that pays 40% less? Did it.
Several hiring managers had the opportunity to capitalize on the major contributions I am prepared to make. Their loss, but mine as well.
 






I feel your pain but it's not just experienced sales reps getting it in the neck. I could write the exact same CV as a Principle Engineer at a big Biotech company. 47 years old, huge amount of experience in design, commissioning and validating complex pharma critical systems. Worked as a Lead Engineer on multi-million dollar projects. Laid off due to "corporate restructuring". No offers in 18 months so i've just accepted that i wll have to go and do something else for the rest of my working life. It's basically too volatile an industry to be in when you get to a Senior Level in middle age, regardless of your experience, performance or loyalty to the company. Big Pharma wants compliant, inexperienced foot soldiers under 35. I'm retraining in Radiography. Pharma can kiss my big white, spotty ass.
 












Had an interesting experience : Display table with several companies present that could have hired me and didn't. Saw their new hires. My resume had more depth and proven success ten years ago than those who got the job. Young folks with less than half my experience, and they left half way through the day. Good luck to all who are in their mid-fifties or later and trying to get the position they deserve in today's pharmaceutical field sales. "Age discrimination is the last accepted form of job discrimination." Hiring managers: what goes around, comes around.
 






This is a great thread and is full of wisdom. I was recently hired by a small pharma company, The referral to the new employer came from a casual buddy at a former company. I am over 60 and this thread has made me more appreciative of getting back into the industry.

I had left for a few years and was having a great time in a totally unrelated industry but missed the paydays. Also the interim job had NO bonus structure and lots of dead weight onboard. The dead weight, with no way to differentiate yourself via performance, was a killer for me. I like to work...

It is good to be getting bonus checks for extra effort and production. And the contest bonus money is good too.

Yes there are flaws everywhere and some of the processes that should support our sales efforts are poor. It is selling again and fun for the most part IF you self-filter out the grumbling and oddities. It is up to me to tolerate and ignore how my company an industry 'could be perfect' or even 'better' or I will sew my own disatisfaction.

UNSOLICITED COUNSELLING SECTION: Keep your LinkedIn page current and be pro-active with all of your old industry friends. I just found out that an old close friend was laid off 6 months ago in a distant city. If HE had touched base with me, I could have gotten him at least an interview and most likely through a round or two of interviews. HE DID NOT LET ME KNOW so I could not help him. Avoid the self righteous 'hermit' or 'I'm ashamed' mentality and be pro-active on every front. EVERYONE has been there and will understand. If you performed well and make sure everyone knows, then good things can happen.

It is not a perfect situation but our sales force average age must be 45 and the experienced rep is valued. Take heart veterans.

There are places for us to ride into the sunset, or the next sunset, or the next sunset. We just might have to change horses here and there. Saddle up!
 






Like many of you, I am in my 50s. And my passion for Medical/Pharma sales has begun to lessen since my former company filed for bankruptcy two years ago now. Have lost count of how many final round interviews I have made it too.....and like a previous Rep said so well.....am so damn tired of coming in 2nd over and over again, and too much younger Sales Reps!

It took awhile for me to come to the realization that Big Pharma/Medical may not be the smartest job for me to try for any more. As others have said before, District and Hiring Managers are younger these days, I mean shit, its like interviewing with one of my own 3 sons or Niece...lol.

I stumbled onto a delivery truck recently, (one of those Linen Service companies) that I had not thought about in nearly 3 years. I found that this company, with headquarters down in the southern part of my state, is now beginning to deliver in the central part of the state where I have resided for nearly 15 years, and built solid long-term relationships with Drs. offices, Nursing homes, and small-midsized Hospitals. I had my 1st interview with the Human Resource Manager last week, and it was very promising, as he realized I could hit the ground running, instead of taking months/years for a new young Rep to get to the same place I am now!

Keep the faith! and don't give up on YOURSELF! You never know what may drop right in your lap if you keep your eyes and ears open to new possibilities.
 












Isn't it sad to still be hawking drugs to doctors? The job is bringing donuts and kissing butts.
You really have to move on when you are about 30 or you tend to lose your mind.
 


















I am nearly 60. I'm blessed to have worked in pharma until I was 54. After that, I realized this was a young person's game because I couldn't even get pharma contract work anymore. The contractor district managers are open to hiring mothers and older workers. But when big pharma started vetting the candidates they picked, and doing the interviews themselves, then the contractor managers had to cave to the client's wish to hire the younger candidates. And so I finished my last contract in December 2013 with no more offers.

I have opened my horizons to other medical sales. In 2014, I was hired as a Medical Liaison for a national vein treatment company. They matched my best pharma salary and I had a decent bonus. No company car. i stayed with them for 3 years. My next opportunity came in home health. I'm an account executive. Again, they matched my best salary but little bonus. But they gave me a new company car which I love. My company does not discriminate against age that I know of. I can't say the same for other home health companies. Some of them weren't interested in me. One actually had an online form that asked my age.

I think it helps to keep your mind open to other opportunities, particularly in an "aging" industry like long term care or home health. You get to learn a completely different sales process, and studying health law is a challenge this late in your career. If you're open to learning new things, you will learn a lot working for a medical provider!
 












I had a face to face with Eli Lilly. Female manager from LA made no secret of her age discrimination. Clearly against federal law. Shame on Lilly!! Another manager was present and he saw the discrimination.
 






anonymous said:
If it is any consolation, I am in the midst of starting a new company and while I am not quite ready to pull the trigger I will only be hiring a few 50+ reps, all for the exact reasons you cite. If I wanted a bunch of 20-somethings that can read from a script then I am sure there would be no shortage, but what I need is one or two senior people that can handle a complex sale on the benefits, at multiple levels within the healthcare system. That is what the good reps used to excel at, and what the really good ones can still do.

I know that doesn't do much for those of you out there looking right now, but I would rather have one guy or gal with a little gray hair than ten of the young ones.
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50+ and in the same boat said:
Like many of you, I am in my 50s. And my passion for Medical/Pharma sales has begun to lessen since my former company filed for bankruptcy two years ago now. Have lost count of how many final round interviews I have made it too.....and like a previous Rep said so well.....am so damn tired of coming in 2nd over and over again, and too much younger Sales Reps!

It took awhile for me to come to the realization that Big Pharma/Medical may not be the smartest job for me to try for any more. As others have said before, District and Hiring Managers are younger these days, I mean shit, its like interviewing with one of my own 3 sons or Niece...lol.

I stumbled onto a delivery truck recently, (one of those Linen Service companies) that I had not thought about in nearly 3 years. I found that this company, with headquarters down in the southern part of my state, is now beginning to deliver in the central part of the state where I have resided for nearly 15 years, and built solid long-term relationships with Drs. offices, Nursing homes, and small-midsized Hospitals. I had my 1st interview with the Human Resource Manager last week, and it was very promising, as he realized I could hit the ground running, instead of taking months/years for a new young Rep to get to the same place I am now!

Keep the faith! and don't give up on YOURSELF! You never know what may drop right in your lap if you keep your eyes and ears open to new possibilities.
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I have a job where I'm known and respected in sales at the age of 50. I interviewed at another company and got the offer with more money, bonus and better title plus a few folks working for me. I'm reluctant to take it at 50 years old because I'll be the old guy with few connections at a newer, younger company.

One important thing I see is that experience needs to be constantly refreshed and updated with new skills. Too many of us get der and more experienced but never go back to school, get more certifications, take risks and develop new skills. We let ourselves get outdated thinking doing well what we've always done will keep us in good stead. We get lazy and stop challenging the company to get better and accept things the way they are. That is bad and when we do that, it's time to go.

And still, I'm not sure if I'll take a new job at a new place with new people for a lot more money because stepping out of the comfort zone at 50 is much riskier than doing it at 30, 35.
 






anonymous said:
I have a job where I'm known and respected in sales at the age of 50. I interviewed at another company and got the offer with more money, bonus and better title plus a few folks working for me. I'm reluctant to take it at 50 years old because I'll be the old guy with few connections at a newer, younger company.

One important thing I see is that experience needs to be constantly refreshed and updated with new skills. Too many of us get der and more experienced but never go back to school, get more certifications, take risks and develop new skills. We let ourselves get outdated thinking doing well what we've always done will keep us in good stead. We get lazy and stop challenging the company to get better and accept things the way they are. That is bad and when we do that, it's time to go.

And still, I'm not sure if I'll take a new job at a new place with new people for a lot more money because stepping out of the comfort zone at 50 is much riskier than doing it at 30, 35.
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Well you sound like a know it all so you should be invincible in the new fraternity. Having been in the industry for over 30 years, the new skills you encourage others to ‘develop’ are the same old mousetraps from the past and simply ways for the brown nosers to look good to get promoted. Please stop your bragging typical sales person!
 






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