Age discrimination rampant.

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I will only be hiring a few 50+ reps, all for the exact reasons you cite.

Could you be any more of a moron the thread says age discrimination and that is exactly what you plan on doing unreal.
 






I am 54, female with 15 yrs of pharma experience. I finally left pharma sales and in a different sales position with a contract company. I was a top performer, won awards and trips and was downsized and/or laid off from pharma sales three times. My salary took a hit each time. Don't be too hard on yourself. It is all about the money. Higher a contract rep for $30K less than current wages. Offer less benefits and 1.5 days a month of PTO. This is the new sales world. I would suggest to take your skills and talents and find another meaningful career.
 






anonymous said:
I will only be hiring a few 50+ reps, all for the exact reasons you cite.

Could you be any more of a moron the thread says age discrimination and that is exactly what you plan on doing unreal.
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Sorry youngster, you are not part of a protected group so learn some labor law before you start calling people other people morons. Your choice to call somebody a moron in a public forum is precisely the kind of behavior I am looking to avoid.

Back in the day there was something called consultative selling, and it was the most powerful marketing tool ever created. That is what I am hiring for, not age per se, but ever since pharma went to the share of voice and call frequency BS, consultative selling went the way of the dodo bird so people much younger than that don't have the skill set. Right around the time pharma got obsesses with share of voice they started to lose access to physician offices. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I likewise want people who can communicate in writing, but that requires the ability to write in complete sentences, with properly spelled words, rather that some "leet speak" that is the product of too many text messages. Professionals still follow simple courtesies like sending follow-up letters, you know, the kind with an actual stamp in the corner. It is still the best investment in customer engagement that 49 cents can buy.

Finally, there is just good old fashioned experience that you only get with 20-25 years in the field. The people I am talking about have succeeded multiple times, but they have failed miserably too and have the battle scars to prove it. You can always tell the pioneers because they are the ones with arrows in their back. If you think you can launch a complex system sale in the current healthcare environment, get buy in from the physicians, get buy in from the hospital, get buy in from the hospital group that owns the hospital, and convince the payors who foot the bill without that level of experience then you are delusional. It will be tough enough with the most professional and polished team that can be found.

And to the person who asked, at least one of the positions will be based in Miami, but nothing is imminent.
 












anonymous said:
Excellent to hear that you will be hiring tenured reps - much success in your new start up!
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Read WHAT this IDIOT says he only wants to HIRE A FEW tenured reps wow gee thanks . Also do you really think this guy has something so great that he would be posting on Cafe Pharma. Don't be so gullible clearly this guy is a major bs artist stating maybe he will have a position in Miami whatever.
 












Great thread. I am 61. Just need something till 65 so I have insurance. Look for start ups and contract companies like Inventiv. I am in specialty, big salary, totally miserable with a 30 year old hot shot manager who knows nothing except how to say "cool beans" and wears suits 2 sizes too small and short pants to show off his stupid looking collection of socks.

About to land a contract job at......half.........yes, I said half my current salary. I'm just buying time at this point and trying not to be miserable.
 












anonymous said:
Great thread. I am 61. Just need something till 65 so I have insurance. Look for start ups and contract companies like Inventiv. I am in specialty, big salary, totally miserable with a 30 year old hot shot manager who knows nothing except how to say "cool beans" and wears suits 2 sizes too small and short pants to show off his stupid looking collection of socks.

About to land a contract job at......half.........yes, I said half my current salary. I'm just buying time at this point and trying not to be miserable.
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LMAO with the suits 2 sizes too small and socks . How does one get into those suits damn !
Beware Inventiv hope u got in with a decent company. They now deal with alot of garbage companies with bs products that nobody cares too write for and expect the rep too perform miracles .
 






anonymous said:
It very disappointing when you've given 20+ years to a profession only to be tossed out with the trash. I'm facing a new ( younger) manager and he is doing everything possible to push me out. I'm not sure I want to even fight it anymore.
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Most hiring process are in inherently age discriminatory. Lucky to find a job that pays much less but still a position. All the questions discriminate against the older person. Because they can ask why you left a job 10 years ago, why you have not been promoted in the last position. You can not ask the same questions of person with 5 years experience. I was asked about why i made decisions 10-15 years ago, why i was seeking a position paying less. All of these questions ARE DISCRIMINATORY!!! you could not ask a younger person these questions, in fact most balk when you ask about their schooling
 












Try to network with former colleagues that are now with other companies, have had success getting in front of hiring manager that way...with two, I came in 2nd, the third time is the "charm". Also, many practices are hiring Physician Liaison positions which is basically like Pharma rep job...marketing practice to others.
 






I think it's a combination of all of the comments listed including money as to why these large companies set out to push out senior managers or veteran employees that know the marketplace, have field connections, have the respect of their team, and have more than 15 years in the industry. At the same time myself and my counterparts were the managers that were always working late and running down client concerns and continued to close new organic business. We were bought by this company and their conversations with us were we brought the strong customer service to the acquisition something they needed help with, and we needed the technology they brought to the acquisition, and how this was going to be the perfect marriage. The first thing they did was start cost saving synergies even though we suggested maybe they reverse the territory order of moving clients to the new company to be more prepared to work out some of the bugs in the new process' the new company put in place but had not been tested before the most profitable clients are moved over. But they came off certain and they operationally failed at the new process' that they were sure were in place. They put their most incompetent people in charge of the transition as if none of us were trustworthy. When clients started dropping because they ignored our suggestions or decided what services were important to the clients and they didn't receive that well and quit, executive management would get on a call and scream at everyone, demeaning individuals, humiliating managers, and employees on the call. It was draining to listen to and decisions based on conversation everyone had participated in early on and our suggestions were ignored. Once most of the clients left we were all told what a terrible job we did and informed we had to sell the financial difference in the lost accounts because the executives were not going to go down for it. From then on everything that came our way came as a threat in the way of a write up, a performance issue, trying to beat the system, and a request for assistance with client or employee situations beyond our scope of final approval met with unreturned phone calls or emails. Our legacy co-workers were allowed to say anything they wanted to us or about us and HR & management always had their back. We made more than our highest paid counterpart, and they tended to want to fly under the radar and not want to work very hard. Management loved them because the culture bred mediocrity, and allowed the company culture to treat employees poorly, provide sales a ridiculously insulting comp plan that dumbs the representatives commissions down, and breeds low performers in what's suppose to be a sales driven organization. Management doesn't communicate with you and they aren't interested in what you have to say either. They have replaced every position with a younger, less experienced person, who makes less money, and doesn't challenge anything they tell them to do. I had to leave the industry. It makes me sick to see how it's ended up all about the money and incompetent people. There has always been bad eggs in the past, but most of us really did care about clients and patients, and helping them and making things right was part of the sale or a future sale, our reputation in the field was everything. Today organizations have no problem having you go to clients and tell them something they know won't happen to appease them today to buy time. They are uninterested in your reputation so they don't see the problem with this. I'm in my 50's and would love to keep working. There aren't small independent companies out there anymore and if there are they will be bought soon by probably the company I came from.
 












60 yr old female here, who thinks this is the best on CP. I've been successful in diagnostic devices, lab marketing and specialty pharma. You are all correct in your statements. Yes, the young ones are hired because they are cheaper, more malleable and usually not a threat to upper mgmt. Sadly here in America we live in a youth-oriented culture, where ageism is not only rampant, it's rabid. The expectation these days that if you don't still look 20, then you must do everything possible to ensure that you still appear young. That means all the plastic surgery you can't afford.This isn't just for women. I've met men in their sixties that are undergoing costly procedures just so they can fit into the culture. Weight, age and sex discrimination is abominable in sales. I have not succumbed to this kind of demeaning pressure. I will leave this industry before I allow it to wear me down. Sadly what I've learned is, the smarter you are and the more experienced you are, the more of a threat you are to everyone around you. I've always been very well-liked person and done extremely well in diverse types of sales. The biggest mistakes I've made along the way includes trusting people and allowing myself to be set up as a mentor and protector, for my manager's weak and poor hires. I have always been praised for my leadership skills and collaborative outlook. Don't ever fall for this lame excuse to cover up someone's inability to hire quality people, let alone manage them. Further, the more you are seen with said weak hire, you will get associated with their weaknesses. All the while, you work double time, doing the job your manager is paid to do. Insecure, young and self entitled will gladly use you, then resent you and eventually will turn on you in jealousy.
What pisses them off, is when they discover they'll never be able to catch up with you as a seasoned performer. Never mind, we've been in the business longer and yes we have the war wounds and yes we've learned how to overcome them. That's why we're still in the industry. This scares the hell out of young people who, feeling entitled these days, just want to kick us to the curb and run over us with the bus. Look out, don't get too friendly and don't get too caught up in helping out your manager.
 






Outstanding post by the 60 yr old. Am in my late 50's and feel very blessed to still be working in this industry.
Such a shame that a target is on your back when you reach 50 or even earlier in this industry. My last "big box" pharma company started to put pressure on people in their late 40's because they didn't want them to make it to 50.
I've had younger people tell me that if you're not set to retire by 50 you haven't planned your life properly! Ha - just wait - all the best planning & saving will never prepare you for the cost of kids in college that hits about that time - in your 50's! My point is - you will want & need to keep working - no matter what you think.
We need each other, the younger worker & the older worker. We all have a place. Don't put us out to pasture. Some of the best advice & training I got in my career was from the "oldsters" when I was a young rep. I loved working with them & learned much. Now I am one of them & have many more productive days ahead & can offer much to my company. Just remember, you will be in our position sooner than you think! All the best.
 






Firstly this is the first mature thread I have come across on CP. I read CP cause it's entertaining as I find most folks who post on CP are bashing their company and such people are usually poor performers. I am a 60+ person who worked his way up from carrying the bag to a senior level sales management level.

As a manager I never hired nor coached managers to hire based on specific product experience, age, skin color, ethnicity, gender, so-called relationships, whether they were a D1 athlete or any other irrelevant and/or bias trait. Successful managers base hiring decisions on skills, past consistent successes, capabilities and how a person carries him/herself ie: maturity. As for the manager(s) who has a requisite that the candidate must have sold a similar product ie: dermatology, cardiac, orthopedic, etc. that's myopic thinking. It all comes down to whether the individual has the skill sets, intellect and knowledge/ability to navigate today's hospital as well as healthcare economic environment. These type of reps can and will quickly learn the product, competitive products/clinical environment and procedures. As a colleague once said...find the person who has the 'Selling Gene' we can teach him/her the rest.

As for age, it is prevalent. I interviewed for 2 senior level sales management positions the past 6 months. Both instances I spent 3+ hours on phone interviews with President/CEO, VP HR, etc. and was viewed as a solid if not top candidate. However once I went inside for face-to-face interviews the feedback was 'not a good fit'. Which from my perspective is a euphemism for too old.

Funny thing, I still continue to look for a position. Wanna know why...cause I believe I can bring value to a company and it's people and really enjoy working especially in the med device field. Experienced folks, such as those on this thread, are a significantly better, more reliable investment (ROI). I am not advocating reverse discrimination ie: just hire older workers. Let's not indict every manager but it does seem that many hiring managers tend to have a negative bias of the 'older' worker. Maybe it's insecurity. But as one poster inferred, a smart hiring manager will look at people like us and say to him/herself...wow I can learn a heck of lot form this person. Unfortunately there aren't many hiring managers like that.

Lastly what I tend to laugh at is how much a company over spends on inexperienced employees. Think of it this way. How much money did you earn when you had minimal experience? I bet a lot! In essence you were overpaid relative to your experience level. But obviously you demonstrated potential and were looked at as a solid long term investment. Now fast forward and think of the value you/we bring to a company today...many years into your career. It's huge! But unfortunately companies, and those conducting the hiring, just don't get it. Sort of ironic, these same folks will be 50/60 years old one day. Wonder how they will feel then?
 






Operative question is: What to do?
Sure doesn't seem right that I should have to hide my age via calculated omissions on my resume or coloring the grey beard, choosing best suit/tie combo to look younger, or spending hours preparing a business plan in Power Point. Regarding PP- lost a job to much younger guy who I saw showing his PP presentation to the hiring manager. I didn't do that, just discussed in detail how I would launch the product. He got the job and 9 months later they were hiring again for the exact same position.
Just saying.
When the experience prior to last job proves in multiple ways that I've proven that I create success with new customers in new markets with new disease states and new products, why would I omit that from my resume? How can a wealth of experience that most other candidates don't have be irrelevant or worse, disregarded? The idea that I can't handle selling in a disease state/market unless I have been working in it for the last 3 years is ludicrous!
Bitter truth:? Perhaps someone who "looks good for their age" is wasting time preparing that shiny Power Point presentation?
 






anonymous said:
Operative question is: What to do?
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Well for sure don't lie; that will get you an immediate termination for cause when you are found out. Integrity still counts for something and at the first hint that an employee is not 100% trustworthy out they go, whether they are 18 or 65 or in-between.

The trick, and I know this is not easy, is to find somebody that needs selling skills that go much further than doing a thirty second canned pitch. That company may be in pharma, they may be in some other business, but somebody with refined sales technique that knows how to deal with customers and deliver value stick out above all the dreck. Corporate IBM guys from the 1980's come to mind, as well as some of the pharmas.

However, there is no cure for "bad fit" or lack of team chemistry. I have interviewed lots of senior executives, all sent to be by experienced retained recruiters that did their job well, and all candidates had the right technical skills, but sometimes the personalities don't mix. In that case, just keep looking.
 






Yes don't give up. Just like we all know in sales - sometimes it's that last, late-day sales call that you really don't want to make, but you push yourself anyway + are so glad you did. It only takes one good manager who sees your potential + is not threatened by your experience, but realizes you may in fact make him look great.
 






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