The Soul-Killing Drudgery of Pharmaceutical Sales

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The money is not worth it anymore...sacrificing your dignity and selling your soul stressed trying to pretend to have meaningful day year after year. Not to mention the unrelenting B.S. I used to justify it the same way but no longer...
 




Anonymous said:
Forget the degree...if you need anything else get a trade of some sort. Build onto the degree you have. There are too many people with degrees who are out of work...and in massive debt as a result of it...

In hindsight the best route is something technical.....computer IT, engineering, mechanical, scientific or med tech. If you want patient centered healthcare NP, PA or MD are really the only in demand and where a livable income is possible....Even plumbing, electricians, carpentry, mechanics and painters have more opportunities than many college grads....

Have a friend who was with another pharma and had a worthless psych masters... She went into a 6 month IT program and also got a personal fitness training certificate.....she 's now a manager with a major IT related company full time and sees fitness clients on the side...she started the training after a layoff (while on UI and some other family income) when she was about 43....now about 8 years later she is making an excellent income....
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While your idea might work for those under fifty, it won't for us oldtimers. I need to continue to make 80 plus a year if there is any hope of even retiring at 65. So, nine more years of this B.S. I do plan on a certificate program in healthcare regulatory compliance next year. IT just might finally get me out of the field and into more meaningful work and the endless driving and lifting of pharma, and it should pay well. With a CHC, I should be able to work for the government, work for a health system or CRO or work in corporate pharma but not device. I guess we'll see if it works out. I do not have the time or energy anymore to work two jobs or to wait for my insurance or financial planning clientele to take-off.

IT, accounting, healthcare technical degrees are all good ideas but everyone has gone in that direction and I predict soon those areas will fill up with younger folks. There is horrible age discrimination in this country and employers do tend to hire the younger folks over the older if both have the same degree even though someone older might exhibit more maturity. It is a shame what has happened to a once fun job. Fifteen years ago, I thought this was the best job on earth and doctors gave us the time of day and even enjoyed our company. Those practitioners are 1 in 100 now. All some of us can do is hang on for dear life, pay down our bills and pray we even make to retirement with a job.
 




Anonymous said:
While your idea might work for those under fifty, it won't for us oldtimers. I need to continue to make 80 plus a year if there is any hope of even retiring at 65. So, nine more years of this B.S. I do plan on a certificate program in healthcare regulatory compliance next year. IT just might finally get me out of the field and into more meaningful work and the endless driving and lifting of pharma, and it should pay well. With a CHC, I should be able to work for the government, work for a health system or CRO or work in corporate pharma but not device. I guess we'll see if it works out. I do not have the time or energy anymore to work two jobs or to wait for my insurance or financial planning clientele to take-off.

IT, accounting, healthcare technical degrees are all good ideas but everyone has gone in that direction and I predict soon those areas will fill up with younger folks. There is horrible age discrimination in this country and employers do tend to hire the younger folks over the older if both have the same degree even though someone older might exhibit more maturity. It is a shame what has happened to a once fun job. Fifteen years ago, I thought this was the best job on earth and doctors gave us the time of day and even enjoyed our company. Those practitioners are 1 in 100 now. All some of us can do is hang on for dear life, pay down our bills and pray we even make to retirement with a job.
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I sincerely wish you the best. Nine more years of Merck is a tough road ahead.
 




Anonymous said:
"buy a business or go back to school."

WOW... wish I were in your "big" shoes....will you tell me how the typical worker can just walk away from a job, have zero income and no benefits then have the money appear to buy a business and get it off and running (duh...this takes a few years, at least..). The same applies to running up school bills without an income.

Have you ever thought you need to draw a salary and pay bills? Unless you have spouse who is pulling in enough this is not realistic.....

Put on your thinking cap.....you're not using your brain.
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you are not using your balls...(or don't have any) You might not have enough money to start the next Apple Computer or Exxon Corp, but surely you have enough saved to buy a low cost franchise, or laundreymat or something like that...

unless you want to continue being a slave to Merck and pharma...
 




Anonymous said:
you are not using your balls...(or don't have any) You might not have enough money to start the next Apple Computer or Exxon Corp, but surely you have enough saved to buy a low cost franchise, or laundreymat or something like that...

unless you want to continue being a slave to Merck and pharma...
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Select few have an extra 50K play money and that is what is needed at a minimum for any franchise or laundry business (ps...better know how for fix big machines if you go this route or the repairman will bust you)......Take a course on small businesses before you seriously entertain this idea....if I could find 50K it would go into a retirement savings.

You need another source of income (working spouse...etc) to pay your personal living expenses while you are developing any business.. I have had a business and know it well....you need to know reality.

You do not start making anything for quite some time. Much work and expense up front before you clear a dime..Then expect to compete with larger and better equipped companies for the business....When you do get a client expect them to keep you dangling for 90-120 days to get paid....yes, friend this is what happens...Then it is constant looking for new clients, and putting in the time and expense of traveling and making business presentations (for free) while trying to get new clients and new work channels....You will go through periods of making zero money...all business owners know about hitting these walls....

Generally your operations expenses (equipment, travel, rent...) eat up a lot.....How much are your expenses here every month? Its that x2, at least. After you make that you must have enough to pay yourself a salary minus double SS deductions (no one paying that other half anymore), state and federal tax. Don't forget the various benefits you need yourself (insurance) you might need...You will also need a good and low cost CPA because business tax quarterlies are very complicated and time consuming...and must be 100% accurate...

Obama will be making it much, much tougher for any small business to get off the ground....massive tax hikes...Unless you have another income (spouse or a big pension from someplace) I would not go this route. I am not trying to cramp your style but be realistic and very prepared.....maybe start the business while you are still employed just to see if it can get off the ground.....not looking at all this is one of the main reasons why most small businesses go under withing a year or two....
 




Again, PP you are spot on. I looked into buying a carwash years ago and it required 250,000 investment. So, not cheap by any means. Laundry businesses are already on every corner. Most restaurants fail within their first five years and cost a fortune. In fact, I think the stats are about 80 percent of new businesses in this economic climate fail. And, as you noted, without a working spouse who can carry the load and pay for health insurance, you're screwed. When you're in your fifties and have health problems, health insurance alone can run 2000 to 3000 a month. The guy is a dreamer or young stud with plenty of energy and some extra bucks to throw around. It gets real scary once you realize you have only about 300k in retirement and 300k in your home with nearly no pension and just SS staring you in the face. There is no way I can live on 30k annually unless I want to move into a mobile home. Good post!
 




I will add this. I am looking to purchase rental property in order to have some income in retirement. My credit is excellent and there are some real deals in my area. I need to move now though to have a mortgage that I can payoff before I turn 65.
 




Thinking of moving too and know I will be forced before long...equity in a house that I share ownership is less than 125K....we have a 260K mortgage and home equity for some repairs....If we wait a few years maybe the market will improve.....I think this is a problem a lot of people have right now. Move now and lose or stay a while longer...people are really anxious for the economy and housing mkt to finally improve...
 




Anonymous said:
Again, PP you are spot on. I looked into buying a carwash years ago and it required 250,000 investment. So, not cheap by any means. Laundry businesses are already on every corner. Most restaurants fail within their first five years and cost a fortune. In fact, I think the stats are about 80 percent of new businesses in this economic climate fail. And, as you noted, without a working spouse who can carry the load and pay for health insurance, you're screwed. When you're in your fifties and have health problems, health insurance alone can run 2000 to 3000 a month. The guy is a dreamer or young stud with plenty of energy and some extra bucks to throw around. It gets real scary once you realize you have only about 300k in retirement and 300k in your home with nearly no pension and just SS staring you in the face. There is no way I can live on 30k annually unless I want to move into a mobile home. Good post!
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30K a year!!

Not anywhere near a big city but try the back hills of Appalachia..... that money will buy you a nice cabin with a top notch view...
 




Anonymous said:
Again, PP you are spot on. I looked into buying a carwash years ago and it required 250,000 investment. So, not cheap by any means. Laundry businesses are already on every corner. Most restaurants fail within their first five years and cost a fortune. In fact, I think the stats are about 80 percent of new businesses in this economic climate fail. And, as you noted, without a working spouse who can carry the load and pay for health insurance, you're screwed. When you're in your fifties and have health problems, health insurance alone can run 2000 to 3000 a month. The guy is a dreamer or young stud with plenty of energy and some extra bucks to throw around. It gets real scary once you realize you have only about 300k in retirement and 300k in your home with nearly no pension and just SS staring you in the face. There is no way I can live on 30k annually unless I want to move into a mobile home. Good post!
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Agree...forget any debt creating...

Lucky you, with a 300K house paid off...that is big and a rare achievement, wish I had one for even a little fraction of that amount. But some say if you made better choices in life you would have a pension. I agree...that would have given you the security you need. Now you'll need to work till at least 66 or 70 before asking for SS...any life savings will not be really nearly enough to carry you through the elder years..

Medicaid will probably not be around if you become impoverished....so find a real job now and keep on working for a real paycheck....
 




Anonymous said:
Agree...forget any debt creating...

Lucky you, with a 300K house paid off...that is big and a rare achievement, wish I had one for even a little fraction of that amount. But some say if you made better choices in life you would have a pension. I agree...that would have given you the security you need. Now you'll need to work till at least 66 or 70 before asking for SS...any life savings will not be really nearly enough to carry you through the elder years..

Medicaid will probably not be around if you become impoverished....so find a real job now and keep on working for a real paycheck....
Click to expand...

I hear you there. I don't really know what the Merck/SP pension is with only seven years of service. There is a crap pension where I'm at now. If I stick it out for another 8 years (OMG) and continue to save 20 percent of my income, I might end up with about another 300,000. Unfortunately, 600,000 in savings is not enough for much of anything unless I can earn 4 percent on it in dividends (don't know enough but investing). I curse the day I did not marry well, nor did either of us ever stay with any company longer than five years. We live in a really rough area and maybe only 10 percent of employers even offer a pension. Why I did not teach or do government work is beyond me. I guess I never thought I would get this old this quickly and lose half of my worth in the stock market crashes and poor investments in the last two decades. Divorce is also very costly and raising a handicapped child did not help.

Most people I meet (doctors, pharmacists and nurses) in my age bracket either have nothing (seriously) or have already saved over 1 million. Now I hear that in the future you had better be either very rich or very poor. I am just stuck, grateful what I do have but knowing that any day I could lose most of it if the job goes. So, in the end if I can keep working and making 80-120k, my net worth ought to be 1 million but I have no intention of selling the house. We have an apartment we can rent but it is open to the rest of the house (not really a separate living area), meant for family member or a good friend or I suppose an exchange student. If I buy a second house and pay it off and rent the LL, that should be an extra 1200 net coming in each month. We have an Ebay business that brings in about 300 a month. . . .it feels overwhelming to consider feeling more tired, being old and still having to work fulltime. BTW, once you hit 65, you get Medicare and whatever private secondary payer you can snag. If my partner also survives to 65, his SS is about 22,000 annually, but I really do not think he will (bad habits, overweight, high LDL, etc). After I left Merck, we lost the great life insurance the company provided. My new company will not insure us due to age and health - not something I considered when I took the job. (Word of warning there.) Now, all we have is a term policy that expires when we are 62 for 200k each. Sucks.
 








Anonymous said:
While your idea might work for those under fifty, it won't for us oldtimers. I need to continue to make 80 plus a year if there is any hope of even retiring at 65. So, nine more years of this B.S. I do plan on a certificate program in healthcare regulatory compliance next year. IT just might finally get me out of the field and into more meaningful work and the endless driving and lifting of pharma, and it should pay well. With a CHC, I should be able to work for the government, work for a health system or CRO or work in corporate pharma but not device. I guess we'll see if it works out. I do not have the time or energy anymore to work two jobs or to wait for my insurance or financial planning clientele to take-off.

IT, accounting, healthcare technical degrees are all good ideas but everyone has gone in that direction and I predict soon those areas will fill up with younger folks. There is horrible age discrimination in this country and employers do tend to hire the younger folks over the older if both have the same degree even though someone older might exhibit more maturity. It is a shame what has happened to a once fun job. Fifteen years ago, I thought this was the best job on earth and doctors gave us the time of day and even enjoyed our company. Those practitioners are 1 in 100 now. All some of us can do is hang on for dear life, pay down our bills and pray we even make to retirement with a job.
Click to expand...

Fifteen years ago was when I thought the job had gone to hell...I can only imagine how bad it is now. For me it was around 20-22 years ago that I thought I had the best job on earth and having a great DM was also a big part of the picture. The wicked witch troupe arrived at Merck along with Lipitor and Merck has never been the same since.
 




Anonymous said:
While your idea might work for those under fifty, it won't for us oldtimers. I need to continue to make 80 plus a year if there is any hope of even retiring at 65. So, nine more years of this B.S. I do plan on a certificate program in healthcare regulatory compliance next year. IT just might finally get me out of the field and into more meaningful work and the endless driving and lifting of pharma, and it should pay well. With a CHC, I should be able to work for the government, work for a health system or CRO or work in corporate pharma but not device. I guess we'll see if it works out. I do not have the time or energy anymore to work two jobs or to wait for my insurance or financial planning clientele to take-off.

IT, accounting, healthcare technical degrees are all good ideas but everyone has gone in that direction and I predict soon those areas will fill up with younger folks. There is horrible age discrimination in this country and employers do tend to hire the younger folks over the older if both have the same degree even though someone older might exhibit more maturity. It is a shame what has happened to a once fun job. Fifteen years ago, I thought this was the best job on earth and doctors gave us the time of day and even enjoyed our company. Those practitioners are 1 in 100 now. All some of us can do is hang on for dear life, pay down our bills and pray we even make to retirement with a job.
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I'm sorry, but there is not a chance in hell of even one of us still being here in nine years.
 




Anonymous said:
I'm sorry, but there is not a chance in hell of even one of us still being here in nine years.
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I am not here. I just come back to visit. Sadly, I still can get pharma jobs and maybe this one will go for about four more years. If I get some other marketable certification, I might be able to do something else in healthcare. Course, I might be dead then too.
 




Anonymous said:
Agree...forget any debt creating...

Lucky you, with a 300K house paid off...that is big and a rare achievement, wish I had one for even a little fraction of that amount. But some say if you made better choices in life you would have a pension. I agree...that would have given you the security you need. Now you'll need to work till at least 66 or 70 before asking for SS...any life savings will not be really nearly enough to carry you through the elder years..

Medicaid will probably not be around if you become impoverished....so find a real job now and keep on working for a real paycheck....
Click to expand...

Medicare?
 




Anonymous said:
I hear you there. I don't really know what the Merck/SP pension is with only seven years of service. There is a crap pension where I'm at now. If I stick it out for another 8 years (OMG) and continue to save 20 percent of my income, I might end up with about another 300,000. Unfortunately, 600,000 in savings is not enough for much of anything unless I can earn 4 percent on it in dividends (don't know enough but investing). I curse the day I did not marry well, nor did either of us ever stay with any company longer than five years. We live in a really rough area and maybe only 10 percent of employers even offer a pension. Why I did not teach or do government work is beyond me. I guess I never thought I would get this old this quickly and lose half of my worth in the stock market crashes and poor investments in the last two decades. Divorce is also very costly and raising a handicapped child did not help.

Most people I meet (doctors, pharmacists and nurses) in my age bracket either have nothing (seriously) or have already saved over 1 million. Now I hear that in the future you had better be either very rich or very poor. I am just stuck, grateful what I do have but knowing that any day I could lose most of it if the job goes. So, in the end if I can keep working and making 80-120k, my net worth ought to be 1 million but I have no intention of selling the house. We have an apartment we can rent but it is open to the rest of the house (not really a separate living area), meant for family member or a good friend or I suppose an exchange student. If I buy a second house and pay it off and rent the LL, that should be an extra 1200 net coming in each month. We have an Ebay business that brings in about 300 a month. . . .it feels overwhelming to consider feeling more tired, being old and still having to work fulltime. BTW, once you hit 65, you get Medicare and whatever private secondary payer you can snag. If my partner also survives to 65, his SS is about 22,000 annually, but I really do not think he will (bad habits, overweight, high LDL, etc). After I left Merck, we lost the great life insurance the company provided. My new company will not insure us due to age and health - not something I considered when I took the job. (Word of warning there.) Now, all we have is a term policy that expires when we are 62 for 200k each. Sucks.
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Wow…very depressing...
 




These posts are really depressing…I guess I should be happy with what I have…I wish you all the best of luck..really. Just remember..save save save and then save some more. This long term down turn in the economy is depressing.
 




Anonymous said:
Wow…very depressing...
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It is. What is even more depressing are all the people outside of the medical industry making 14 to 20 bucks an hour or working for themselves who have nothing but debt and are fifty years old. I cannot count how many people I know in their fifties or even sixties still working with little savings and struggling to pay their mortgage due to job changes and losses or ill health. I have five people with older master's degrees that have been out of work for longer than three years. One lives in a colder climate and last winter heated the house with the stove because the furnace broke. Another was in pharma for only four years and it pretty much ruined his career path. They are about to lose their house now. Their kids have no college funds anymore and they blew through their retirement trying to keep the house. I could go on and on but they are everywhere. Pharma pretty much cushions us in a world of make believe because we hang around that "upper crust" of society. The problem is most of us just have BA degrees in marketing or business (some MBAs) and because of ten-plus years of pharma sales experience on the resume, it has made us virtually worthless anywhere else. When this industry has another round of big layoffs in the next two years, there are going to be a bunch of people in real trouble.

To put some of it in perspective: A good friend retired after public service and his wife is a nurse and she still works at 65 for a clinic. He retired with 275,000 in total savings (his and hers) and a house worth about 200,000 paid for. He gets 1500 a month in SS and a small pension. They are actually well off for this area. Outside of doctors and a few nurses or government workers, I know of no one besides corporate executives that are going to live the "high" life in their golden years.
 




Anonymous said:
These posts are really depressing…I guess I should be happy with what I have…I wish you all the best of luck..really. Just remember..save save save and then save some more. This long term down turn in the economy is depressing.
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And have one bad illness and it is gone just like that. (Read the medical leave thread.)
 




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