The problem with Biotronik

Seriously man...! You were very successful and now you're with Bio.! Credibility= Zero.......

After my time with Guidant, I became more realistic about "credibility". As long as my paycheck does not = Zero, I will leave you to cuddle up with your own sense of credibility. Good Luck in the Next Round of RIFFs.
 






After my time with Guidant, I became more realistic about "credibility". As long as my paycheck does not = Zero, I will leave you to cuddle up with your own sense of credibility. Good Luck in the Next Round of RIFFs.

Totally agree. "Credibility", "loyalty", "commitment".........it's BS! It's all about Wall Street and everyone that works for the big three are simply slaves to The Street.
I'm perfectly happy doing my thing over here now and not having to listen to all of the nonsense from The Slaves and my paycheck looks just as about as good as most.
I hope all of your are looking out for yourselves and your families first because the big three are not.
 






Totally agree. "Credibility", "loyalty", "commitment".........it's BS! It's all about Wall Street and everyone that works for the big three are simply slaves to The Street.
I'm perfectly happy doing my thing over here now and not having to listen to all of the nonsense from The Slaves and my paycheck looks just as about as good as most.
I hope all of your are looking out for yourselves and your families first because the big three are not.

BIO is successful at being used as a pawn in the contract pricing game....and it works at driving down ASP's but when it's all said and done, BIO gets a handful of initial "Thank you" cases, pay docs to do some talks and their done with you. You accomplished the goal of getting on contract but it doesn't matter if you're not doing cases. So what, you won the race but lost the Marathon. It's fun to watch you guys come back into these accounts without your bags and roaming the CL halls begging for cases.

What's really funny is that you believe your own BS and ramp up hiring assuming you're going to get business just because you got on a big account. Of course you pull the "Physician Trainining" payouts which we all do but that's never proved to be a long term relationship builder.
 


















Funny how guys in the big three can play clinical studies payouts on any and every algorithm(most mean nothing) yet point the finger at BIO about our tactics

Priceless.


I'm not saying we don't do some of those tactics and I'm not pointing fingers. I'm simply differentiating between what BIO calls "MS growth" and the perception BIO develops amongst its staff calling these efforts "sales" vs. what we call short term gains through these short term blips on the radar. We don't base hiring decisions on whether we can have Dr. X start doing training cases with us. BIO does. We don't hire based on getting on a contract with no proof that any of the physicians will put in devices. BIO does.

BIO is creating a false sense of security when they factor in cases directly related to "Training cases" "Studies" "Product handling trials" etc. That is not business growth though BIO relies heavily on these activities YOY and this is a huge % of the BIO reps focus and I'm sorry, that is not selling and it's not something that builds product loyalty and repeat business.

Physicians know BIO is in it for the "Quick Hit and Run", reflective of the service support or lack there of, so they play along for a couple cases and they're done. We all know the drill...and oh yeah....throw in the occassional bad mouthing of the competition by telling physicians how reps are bashing on CP...that's always good for a case or two. Not childish or anything.
 






Your assumption holds no water my friend. If this is all true then every time BIO hires do to a "training site" "study" or "new contract" then they should be riffing after that has proven to not be of any MS growth. That is once your supposed doctor gives his "one or two" cases and then is done. I have only known of one RIFF done at BIO and that was a small one. It seems to me that you are speaking of what may happen over at the other companies. Also, I don't know where you get that BIO has all of these "training sites", "study sites" and new contract offerings in the first place? These are all limitations of BIO's. Yes it happens, but we don't have the money and resources to compete in this arena with the others.

I will say one thing, once a doctor uses BIO and really gets to know the technology he doesn't stray to much. We usually stay in the rotation. Even if its from studies and training sites. We have been around for 50 years and are going to be around another 50 so get use to continued MS loss.

Lots of new technology coming to US. Keep thinking its all kick backs and studies. Every physicians office I go to has 3-4 St Jude studies going on. Get real!! You even pay them to fluro your crappy leads!
 






I'm not saying we don't do some of those tactics and I'm not pointing fingers. I'm simply differentiating between what BIO calls "MS growth" and the perception BIO develops amongst its staff calling these efforts "sales" vs. what we call short term gains through these short term blips on the radar. We don't base hiring decisions on whether we can have Dr. X start doing training cases with us. BIO does. We don't hire based on getting on a contract with no proof that any of the physicians will put in devices. BIO does.

BIO is creating a false sense of security when they factor in cases directly related to "Training cases" "Studies" "Product handling trials" etc. That is not business growth though BIO relies heavily on these activities YOY and this is a huge % of the BIO reps focus and I'm sorry, that is not selling and it's not something that builds product loyalty and repeat business.

Physicians know BIO is in it for the "Quick Hit and Run", reflective of the service support or lack there of, so they play along for a couple cases and they're done. We all know the drill...and oh yeah....throw in the occassional bad mouthing of the competition by telling physicians how reps are bashing on CP...that's always good for a case or two. Not childish or anything.

Your beloved company will be firing you or at least one of your friends within the next 3 months...so forgive me if your misplaced loyalty strikes me as a little laughable.

Big picture? This job will not be worth having in 3 years...so the "right" place to be right now is the place that NEEDS people in the field, not the one's trying to decide who they NEED to fire.
 






Lets see, one company is 20% above plan and has a strong non CRM pipeline in Europe.

Other? declining ASP's and share.

When I made the switch, I did my homwork as my MD's know the days of these quais clinical studies were going to end. A smart MD will run from these type "studies" with all the new laws on the books.
 






Lets see, one company is 20% above plan and has a strong non CRM pipeline in Europe.

Other? declining ASP's and share.

When I made the switch, I did my homwork as my MD's know the days of these quais clinical studies were going to end. A smart MD will run from these type "studies" with all the new laws on the books.

A medtronic buddy of mine tells me that in his area (indiana) boston scientific has lowered system pricing for ddd pacers to below 2K. the industry asp's are tanking quickly. good luck out there!
 






A medtronic buddy of mine tells me that in his area (indiana) boston scientific has lowered system pricing for ddd pacers to below 2K. the industry asp's are tanking quickly. good luck out there!

All companies have very unskilled, inexperienced pricing and contract negotiators that have never been in this environment to price so agressively. BIO and BSC have been locked out of so many contracts that will do anything get in and lowering pricing is the sure fire way. This will choke both companies...more work, less $, poor service...recipe for disaster!
 






All companies have very unskilled, inexperienced pricing and contract negotiators that have never been in this environment to price so agressively. BIO and BSC have been locked out of so many contracts that will do anything get in and lowering pricing is the sure fire way. This will choke both companies...more work, less $, poor service...recipe for disaster!

I see it from both sides. Medtronic bulks and lower's asp's in my area. They have a stranglehold on the hospital administrators. I don't mind (for now). I still get top $$$ for my implants AND a better commission. It's not always the smaller company that is pushing down pricing. In fact, I've seen MDT lower prices more than any other company in my 10+ years of CRM.
 






I see it from both sides. Medtronic bulks and lower's asp's in my area. They have a stranglehold on the hospital administrators. I don't mind (for now). I still get top $$$ for my implants AND a better commission. It's not always the smaller company that is pushing down pricing. In fact, I've seen MDT lower prices more than any other company in my 10+ years of CRM.

Not sure your view makes sense. Bulks, rebates, etc. are discounted pricing schemes and have nothing to do with driving down ASP's and has been going on for 25 yrs by all companies. You are clearly not exposed or experienced at contract pricing. You are missing the point and that is my point. BIO is lured into these contract negotiations where they have never done any business but they want to get in so the Hospital comes up with rediculous pricing, sometimes intitiated by BIO, who is so eager to get in, and the hospital then sends out to the big 3 that if they want to be on contract at that facility they all must agree to this rediculous pricing. BIO is the first to jump at the chance and I am aware of several contracts where this has happened and MDT refused to the pricing in multiple contracts this year. Maybe your 10+ yrs of experience has been limited to a very small peep hole but MDT has stood its' ground and been complimented by competitors for sticking to their guns.

I am aware of such a case where BIO got on contract after being the first to agree to rediculous pricing and have done a total of 5 pacers in 5 months which is less than 2% of total implants at that account. What is equally laughable is that BIO hired 2 clinical rejects from the big 3 that were about to lose their jobs and made one a rep in anticipation of increased business and for what? $20k worth of pacer business over 5 mos??? Bravo!
 






"Bulks" are todays version of pavlovs dog. Drive down ASP and it just wets the appetite of the buyer as once you go down this road? a savvy CV manager will ask for a better deal the next quarter you rob peter to pay paul.

Thats why BIO is a better job, we have pressure yet we are not worried about wall street and the quarter to quarter shell game you guys play at BSX, St jude and big blue(I hear non CRM vendors do this too)

I played it for years, 11 to be exact. Funny thing? you get slaps on the back, some bonus at times yet 2 days after you save your managers' ass with a bulk order? he is right back on your ass about "where are the cases". His memory sure is short!

Ridiculous case of hyspocrisy and short sited strategy. only the senior management benefits as they get more options, appease the street and you get screwed with a higher number despite fading ASP's and case volumes
 






Not sure your view makes sense. Bulks, rebates, etc. are discounted pricing schemes and have nothing to do with driving down ASP's and has been going on for 25 yrs by all companies. You are clearly not exposed or experienced at contract pricing. You are missing the point and that is my point. BIO is lured into these contract negotiations where they have never done any business but they want to get in so the Hospital comes up with rediculous pricing, sometimes intitiated by BIO, who is so eager to get in, and the hospital then sends out to the big 3 that if they want to be on contract at that facility they all must agree to this rediculous pricing. BIO is the first to jump at the chance and I am aware of several contracts where this has happened and MDT refused to the pricing in multiple contracts this year. Maybe your 10+ yrs of experience has been limited to a very small peep hole but MDT has stood its' ground and been complimented by competitors for sticking to their guns.

I am aware of such a case where BIO got on contract after being the first to agree to rediculous pricing and have done a total of 5 pacers in 5 months which is less than 2% of total implants at that account. What is equally laughable is that BIO hired 2 clinical rejects from the big 3 that were about to lose their jobs and made one a rep in anticipation of increased business and for what? $20k worth of pacer business over 5 mos??? Bravo!

A noble thing...Medtronic...unfortunately the days of your digging in your heels and sticking to your pricing are over. Now, if you want us to believe its because of the actions of a company that holds 7% markt share (a point you guys are always so gleefully anxious to point out), then I would say YOU are the one looking through a peep hole.

Consider this article which I found while looking at STJ's Yahoo Finance page:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2013/02/04/1-industry-a-heartbeat-away-from-disaster.aspx

Biotronik is small, privately-owned and lacks a large (read: expensive) field force. This is where a company needs to be in a fully mature commoditized market like CRM....and with each round of RIFFs....its apparent that Omar agrees.
 






Not sure your view makes sense. Bulks, rebates, etc. are discounted pricing schemes and have nothing to do with driving down ASP's and has been going on for 25 yrs by all companies. You are clearly not exposed or experienced at contract pricing. You are missing the point and that is my point. BIO is lured into these contract negotiations where they have never done any business but they want to get in so the Hospital comes up with rediculous pricing, sometimes intitiated by BIO, who is so eager to get in, and the hospital then sends out to the big 3 that if they want to be on contract at that facility they all must agree to this rediculous pricing. BIO is the first to jump at the chance and I am aware of several contracts where this has happened and MDT refused to the pricing in multiple contracts this year. Maybe your 10+ yrs of experience has been limited to a very small peep hole but MDT has stood its' ground and been complimented by competitors for sticking to their guns.

I am aware of such a case where BIO got on contract after being the first to agree to rediculous pricing and have done a total of 5 pacers in 5 months which is less than 2% of total implants at that account. What is equally laughable is that BIO hired 2 clinical rejects from the big 3 that were about to lose their jobs and made one a rep in anticipation of increased business and for what? $20k worth of pacer business over 5 mos??? Bravo!

amazing how idiots such as you can attack someone's background. bulking didn't become "vogue" until about 10 years ago. nobody NEEDED to bulk prior to that because Wall Street wasn't so aware of CRM numbers. Once the Contak/Companion/ScudHeft/MADIT II studies came down the pipe things surged and numbers were aggressive.

as the poster said above, the place to be in a commoditized market is with the smaller, leaner company. sure, if MDT is going to pay out the big pensions that's a great thing. but, if they take that away then your screwed.

You're right when you say that Bio has made some bad hires. But, that is no different than other companies doing the same. I've heard and witnessed numerous HUGE EA's given for competitive hires by the big 3 .....only to see Doctor's get pissed with that rep/company or contractual changes making those reps impotent. Who was that guy in California that got paid $500K for 4 years by BSC only to get kicked off contract? He was out walking his dog everyday because he had no place to implant. Now he works for St Jude.

don't live in a glass house out there. for every bad hire made, i'm sure there are some good ones.

WATCH YOUR BACK! As I said before $1600 system pricing is going to kill the industry as a whole.
 






"Bulks" are todays version of pavlovs dog. Drive down ASP and it just wets the appetite of the buyer as once you go down this road? a savvy CV manager will ask for a better deal the next quarter you rob peter to pay paul.

Thats why BIO is a better job, we have pressure yet we are not worried about wall street and the quarter to quarter shell game you guys play at BSX, St jude and big blue(I hear non CRM vendors do this too)

I played it for years, 11 to be exact. Funny thing? you get slaps on the back, some bonus at times yet 2 days after you save your managers' ass with a bulk order? he is right back on your ass about "where are the cases". His memory sure is short!

Ridiculous case of hyspocrisy and short sited strategy. only the senior management benefits as they get more options, appease the street and you get screwed with a higher number despite fading ASP's and case volumes

Have done Bulks at the same hospitals over the last several years and the pricing has never changed nor led to reduced ASP's...just gets the $ to the bank faster. Everyone knows the "No duh" aspects of bulking but that is not related to the subject matter of lowering ASP's and the problem with BIO trying to get into a game where they're being used as pawns and some how thinking this is a good thing.

The next thing that will be devastating to BIO, in thier attempt to get on big contracts, is that the future contracts will be bundled products that will be volume weighted on other products that only the Big3 can offer. BIO will simply go away and be stuck in the little pacer only accounts which will only deminish over time too.

The BIO story of, "Being little has its' advantages" is quickly changing. Flying under the radar has been a luxury and survival tactic just to be a 5% player. When you have to work harder and make less to remain in your job you will have to do a much a better job of convincing people you really enjoy being at BIO.
 






Have done Bulks at the same hospitals over the last several years and the pricing has never changed nor led to reduced ASP's...just gets the $ to the bank faster. Everyone knows the "No duh" aspects of bulking but that is not related to the subject matter of lowering ASP's and the problem with BIO trying to get into a game where they're being used as pawns and some how thinking this is a good thing.

The next thing that will be devastating to BIO, in thier attempt to get on big contracts, is that the future contracts will be bundled products that will be volume weighted on other products that only the Big3 can offer. BIO will simply go away and be stuck in the little pacer only accounts which will only deminish over time too.

The BIO story of, "Being little has its' advantages" is quickly changing. Flying under the radar has been a luxury and survival tactic just to be a 5% player. When you have to work harder and make less to remain in your job you will have to do a much a better job of convincing people you really enjoy being at BIO.

Bio has stents, DES, peripheral, bio-degradeable, etc in its pipeline. Bio is also the perfect company to align with companies such as JNJ and Abbott. Don't write us off so soon grasshopper.
 






Being private has several advantages. Being a slave to a quarter to quarter mindset makes for some very poor decisions.

To suggest bulk purchases as a strategy does not lower ASP's is inconsistent with data and frankly, common sense.

Your purchasing person must be a pushover too as bulks show desperation and anyone who knows how to negotiate can always get more when thye have leverage
 






Being private has several advantages. Being a slave to a quarter to quarter mindset makes for some very poor decisions.

To suggest bulk purchases as a strategy does not lower ASP's is inconsistent with data and frankly, common sense.

Your purchasing person must be a pushover too as bulks show desperation and anyone who knows how to negotiate can always get more when thye have leverage

Spoken like a true last place performer. You keep sticking to that logic my friend. "Leverage"???? That is a completely foriegn land for BIO...however there is the illegal brand of leverage that BIO created but that's for another time and place.