PharmD's are not doctors!

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Anonymous said:
We have a clue…it is the embarrassing degree that Asian, Middle Eastern, and Indian kids get that shames their families since they couldn’t get into medical school or god forbid dental school…seriously how many African American, Caucasian, or Hispanic pharmacist have you seen recently, especially under 40 years old? I haven’t seen many and I work half the country dealing with both retail and academic pharmacists, and attend every national and regional pharmacy conference…at least 8 or so a year at a minimum. Ask ANY of them why they chose to ‘become’ a pharmacist and 90% or better will say...”because I didn’t get into medical school”…sorry but it’s the truth.

Lastly if you really wanted to be a ‘scientist’ working in medicine and drugs why not get a real PhD. in biochem or something like that? Very few pharmacists are developing drugs from the bench…it’s your PhD. biologists, biochemists, chemists, etc…NOT PharmD’s…again sorry but those are the facts. So have fun with your grossly inflated and somewhat obsolete degree…and no Obamacare is not going to give Pharmacists more clout or patient care despite what you may read in your PharmD trade journals and other outlets that are PR’d to death by the APhA ofnthe “important role of the pharmacist in Obamacare”…not until we have real tort reform and we know that’s not changing anytime soon.
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I don't understand the hatred and anger, or the use of race to address your point. If you're truly disappointed in becoming a pharmacist, then you should focus your energy on a career change instead. No one is stopping you from finding your own happiness.

With any profession, you're going find a mix of meaningful work blended in with repetitious activities. This happens in nursing, medicine, optometry, dentistry, etc. I think it's immature to try to de-value someone's work to become the best professional they can be, regardless of what's in front of the "D" in their title.
 






Anonymous said:
I don't understand the hatred and anger, or the use of race to address your point. If you're truly disappointed in becoming a pharmacist, then you should focus your energy on a career change instead. No one is stopping you from finding your own happiness.

With any profession, you're going find a mix of meaningful work blended in with repetitious activities. This happens in nursing, medicine, optometry, dentistry, etc. I think it's immature to try to de-value someone's work to become the best professional they can be, regardless of what's in front of the "D" in their title.
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It's not about devaluing someone's work, it is the nonsense degree that was manufactured as a money grab from the universities. I am Indian and I can tell you this...being a pharmacist is a failure in my culture. My bother and sister are both MD's and I am a PharmD and I'm the 'disgrace' of the family...it is a cultural thing I know, but I went to pharmacy school with many different ethnicities very few black or white, almost all ex-US and almost all where in pharmacy school because they were biology or chemistry majors who didn't get into Med School. I'm just stating a fact that I have a PharmD and it is basically useless. I've been an MSL for 5 years now and make far more than I did as a hospital pharmacist who needed to moonlight in retail. The company I work for just got purchased and I will make over $1M after taxes...I could have made the same amount as a rep...and our reps are paid more than MSL...so again the years I wasted of my life in pharmacy school have paid dividends through industry which I could have gotten into as a rep with a BS/BA degree. We have 5 PharmD's who are reps because they can make more money doing that than being an MSL...sorry for the rant but I wish I could have done a far shorter and less expensive RPH program versus the utter waste of time and money the PharmD program was. Good for the 5% of PharmD's who are really involved in research or hands on patient care...I worked in one of the best academic hospitals in the country and the computer did 80% of my job, the tech did 10% of my job and the PharmD fellows did the other 10%. I just oversaw the process basically...All I am saying is the PharmD degree is a glorified and bloated and somewhat useless degree for 95% of graduates out there.

I think with the exorbitant cost of college and graduate school we are going to see the RPH degree comeback as that is plenty of education for 95% of what a retail or hospital pharmacists does especially with all of the technology that is available today.
 






To be exact, MDs are not doctors either, they are doctors of medicine, as are PharmDs are doctors of Pharmacy, real doctors are individuals that go the extra mile to earn their PhD, a physician out of med school does not hold the academic title of Dr, neither does a pharmacist.

As far as the debate concerning patient care, it is an interdisciplinary care, not just a nurse or a physician. In terms of knowledge, a physician is very capable of diagnosing and treating symptoms, in addition to prescribing, however, the truth is that pharmacist consultation is required. Although pharmacists do not prescribe, they have taken a lot more coursework in pharmacokinetics, compounding, pharmacodynamics, and far more chemistry than a physician, making them more suitable to understand what each drug and how each drug acts differently in the body. Plain dispensing of medications is done by mainly pharmacy technicians, who have not gone to Pharmacy School.

Both professions are equally respected and valued. A physician cannot treat a patient and figure out the appropriate dosing for complicated cases unless a pharmacist is present to assist, likewise a pharmacists cannot just treat a patient without the recommendation on the course of medication from the doctor.

The education is there, and the resources as well, what makes or breaks any profession is how the individual handles it and what institution they work for.
 






Anonymous said:
To be exact, MDs are not doctors either, they are doctors of medicine, as are PharmDs are doctors of Pharmacy, real doctors are individuals that go the extra mile to earn their PhD, a physician out of med school does not hold the academic title of Dr, neither does a pharmacist.

As far as the debate concerning patient care, it is an interdisciplinary care, not just a nurse or a physician. In terms of knowledge, a physician is very capable of diagnosing and treating symptoms, in addition to prescribing, however, the truth is that pharmacist consultation is required. Although pharmacists do not prescribe, they have taken a lot more coursework in pharmacokinetics, compounding, pharmacodynamics, and far more chemistry than a physician, making them more suitable to understand what each drug and how each drug acts differently in the body. Plain dispensing of medications is done by mainly pharmacy technicians, who have not gone to Pharmacy School.

Both professions are equally respected and valued. A physician cannot treat a patient and figure out the appropriate dosing for complicated cases unless a pharmacist is present to assist, likewise a pharmacists cannot just treat a patient without the recommendation on the course of medication from the doctor.

The education is there, and the resources as well, what makes or breaks any profession is how the individual handles it and what institution they work for.
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Have you ever actually worked in a hospital or retail pharmacy? 99% of all drugs given to patients in a hospital are based off of standing orders that have been established over time and are very rarely diverted from. When the 1% chance a rare disease presents where standing orders are non-existent, generally there is a highly specialized physician who writes the orders and they rarely have a need to consult with pharmacy as the general pharmacists in a hospital is not an expert in these rare cases or the drugs used in treating. I worked in a very large hospital where cancer was their primary specialty and the oncologists NEVER consulted with us on chemo regimens and I’m glad they didn’t because most of us were not trained oncology pharmacists. Heck we didn’t even mix the drugs most of the time the chemo nurses did.

Unfortunately I agree with the other poster that technology and technologists do 98% of the job and for the 2% of the time where my training may have value it wasn’t pulled upon all that much.

What’s funny is how serious PharmD’s take themselves…and no we are not at the same level as a doctor…if someone is having a heart attack no one is screaming for a pharmacist and for that I am thankful!
 






Lucky to be in Washington where people are more progressive about the role pharmacists play. A lot of hospitals are considering (specially with the advent of the affordable care act) teams of pharmacist/doctor/dietician/nurse/physical therapist to treat patients, establish protocols, and track health outcomes. Sadly, pharmD's are highly underutilized - partly because of the public perception and the fact that the only contact they get with with pharmacists is one who does "pill-pushing." There are a lot of qualified pharmacists filling in the role of more specialized medication therapy in collaboration with MDs.

A title is a title, and if you're whining about what each of us is called then I highly doubt that you're suited to the field far beyond you taking it for prestige. First and foremost, we all advocate for the patient. Whatever you are called, the priority is the patient. And for the people who say pharmacists don't get advanced training - hospital work requires residencies.

I'm on track to get my PA/PharmD as well as my phD in Medicinal Chemistry. I am not under any allusions in being called a doctor, although I guess it's within my right. But that does not change the esteem I would show fellow health practitioners within the healthcare setting. We all play roles.

Some say it's because pharmacists don't touch patients -- that's also the wrong perception. Some pharmacists have rounds and handle their own patients post-doctor-diagnosis. This saves a lot of money wasted on healthcare. In many instances a pharmacist is less influenced by drug corporations are more knowledgable about the drugs prescribed. While the doctor's primary job is to diagnose patients, the pharmacist is better versed in terms of drug interactions, pharmacokinetics, compounding, pharmaceutics -- all areas of knowledge that doctors should draw from. It's a healthcare team.

The reason some people don't want to be called "doctors" is because of the public connotation. The average layperson associates the term "doctor" to an MD. Honestly, titles are titles. We should be in the field as patient advocates, for enriching lives and bettering the human condition. The job is public service. The unbelievable stroking of own ego that went on in this thread is just jaw-dropping.

And before anyone asks and says I was just too dumb to get into med school - I am not. I did get into University of Washington, John Hopkins University, UCSF, and University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. But since I was not into healthcare for prestige or for the sole purpose of being called a doctor, I went into something more suited to my academic loves and into what I think will be a burgeoning field.
 






I just graduated this past spring and am currently a PGY1 Pharmacy Resident. This thread actually reminds me of my first year Pharmacy School, coming directly from High School in the 6 year program.

Anyways, our section of around 25 students was in Expository Writing, a required class for undergrad graduation. When we were going around the room introducing ourselves and our major, the TA was surprised to find that every student in the room was a pharmacy major.

He went on to ask us that he was curious we chose to do Pharmacy.

One African American girl immediately raised her hand, and loudly (and obnoxiously may I add) stated "Becauseeee it's a prestigious profession that makes a starting salary of 6 figures. We'll all be richhhh ANDDD we will be called doctors in just 6 years!!!"

Needless to say, the room went silent with uncomfortable shuffles, and a few in room giggled anxiously. I could not be more embarrassed.

Anyways, that's my little story, and by the way, I prefer being addressed by my first name.
I am not a doctor, my friend who is in Optometry School is not a doctor, and if you want to be called a doctor, you should have gone to medical school or a respectable PhD field.

Also I see people keep bringing up attorneys, but they don't prefer to be called doctors but rather Mr./Ms (even though they legally could) because 1. it's misleading, and 2. they pride themselves in their occupational title of lawyer/attorney/counselor/etc. and I really think all you pharmacists/nurses/etc should be proud to do the same.

Forcing people to call you Dr. just means to me (a pharmacy graduate) that you have a serious ego issue.
 






As a Pharm.D, I seldom refer to myself or ask to be referred to as doctor.

Referring to myself as doctor: Giving a guest lecture at pharmacy schools or when a patient directly asks me (for the patient's benefit, not mine, and I specify Doctor of Pharmacy).

The only time I ask to be referred to as doctor is when meeting with patients in a clinical setting and am introduced by the MD, in which case it goes "This is one of our clinical pharmacists, Doctor <name>". This is done to put patients at ease, not to milk my ego, and I follow it up with "Hi, as s/he said, I am the pharmacist. You can call me <first name>" If the conversation goes further, I work in that I am not a physician.

As for the whole Pharm.D vs MD thing... I do not see how me being a valuable tool for MD's makes me "less" than an MD, its apples and oranges. Some things only MD's can do or do better, some things only Pharm.D's can do or do better.

What I do find shocking is that Doctors of any kind would be as petty as the things posted in this forum suggests.
 






This is amazing. I love the insecurity of the "physicians" in these posts. Most of these comments are probably made by second year undergrad students googling MD salaries. The would of healthcare is moving toward specialization. Pharmacists are the drug experts. MD's who are concerned about patient care utilize their resources, such as other healthcare professionals. Most physicians do acknowledge this. If your going to medical school to become one of society's elite, do something else. The healthcare world has enough pompous assholes throughout all of its professions. I'm a P3 pharmacy student and don't expect anyone to call me doctor once I'm finished, even though the title will be earned. What's up with demanding the rock star status? Why can't you just do your job, and stop waving your title around like its some kind of trophy?
 






PharmD is a Doctorate Degree

A PharmD is a Doctorate of Pharmacy degree and you have earned right to the title Dr. ....just like a professor with a Doctorate degree , any psychologist ( not psychiatrist which is an MD). I see alot of people on here trying to belittle the degree. The reason why it is a Doctorate degree is because it you have more hours of credit than that of a Master's Degree and this is why the school is a very rigorous 6 year program . I remember taking 38 hours per semester at a minimum most times in pharmacy school. This is also the reason that if you are an RPh you have to go back to school to get your PharmD and this is because of the credit hours needed for a doctorate program. So a doctorate degree is based upon the number of credit hours taken.
 






PharmD is a Doctorate Degree

To clarify a PharmD is a rigorous fast paced total 6 year program( 2 years pre-med/pharm, 4 years pharmacy school) with the number of credits to satisfy a doctorate degree ( therefore a Doctorate Degree) but just all crammed into 6 years.
 












PharmD is Doctor of Pharmacy. It is not a Traditional Doctoral degree. Unfortunately pharmDs now go to school for 6 yrs with the last yr being largely clinical rotations. The degree does not require completion of a dissertation or primary research. Still a lot of work to dispense drugs and work weekends and nights. That's why you have so many PharmDs as MSLs. A great work from home gig! Car, work independently, keep up with new info
How many hours do MSLs put in a week? 20? What do they do all day?
 






PharmD is not a Medical Doctor so in terms of the healthcare system it is confusing to patients. I'm not saying a PharmD isn't smart or they didn't go to school for a long time what I am saying is in the context of the healthcare machine they should not be referred to or ask to be referred to as Doctor. I have no problem with it in academy, but when I meet admin who fails to read my business card, and she tells me be sure to address John as Dr. Smith...it is a sad state.

The ONLY reason I've read on here over the many years this thread has been around is 'that you've earned it'...OK so then we should call lawyers doctor, chiropractors doctor, etc...in our society the sir title doctor has been used primarily to identify a medical doctor, and in less circumstances a PhD Professor...not a person who earned a PhD but does not practice in their said field or teach. It is what it is and the reason a PharmD wants to be called doctor is because they feel entitled to it and it strokes their ego...

Signed,
Oncology MSL
R.Pharm, MBA
 






Succinctly put by someone who still has an RPh degree. 6 years of schooling, minimum, a year of patient-centric clinical rotations, the majority of graduates doing a specialty residency or fellowship for 1-2 more years. The right to be addressed as Doctor, as an expert in your specific filed, has been earned. MDs who can't competently prescribe treatments, including medications, are the joke.
 






This thread is a joke. Who ever says anyone that earned their doctorate in anything, has earned the right to be called doctor. I don't care if you earned a Ph.D in basket weaving and you feel you earned the right, correct every motherfucker that says otherwise.
 






I agree it, this string is pathetic. It was started by a Pharm.D. with a massive inferiority complex. He wanted to be a doctor but could not get into a medical school or a graduate program in the medical sciences but, by God, he got his Pharm.D. so people had better acknowledge his heroic efforts superior intellect and call him doctor. What a fucking douche bag.
 






This thread suck! Some people say that pharmd are not doctor, but they have a salary like them. I have a BS in chemistry, a pharmD and a JD with a better salary and education than a lot of MD. Sorry, but you dont need to be a clinical expert to be called a doctor!!
 






I'm a PharmD! Yes they gave me a doctorate title but I don't ever call myself a doctor. As far a medicine goes the amount of knowledge gained surpasses everyone in the health care profession! I can't tell you how many errors some life threatening that I have caught from the oversight of nurses and physicians. My job is important that is why I have a 120k + salary. The title is not why most pharmacist chose the career because they are never really addressed as such! It's sad that this is even a topic of discussion because most pharmacist don't care. Pay me a great salary for what you call just a masters degree makes me smarter than most!
 






So, I only came here because we were discussing a PharmD program versus a Pharmacy program at our hospital. I see the fits that all of you are having regarding the PharmD vs. MD debate. However, given all of your smart ass remarks… you should learn to spell.
Such as Guess not gues

Finally, we have a PharmD who has been practicing for over 20 years and YES, he is very intelligent and manages PAIN like nobody's business.

Give the title a rest. I'm an acute care NP with subspecialties in critical care and cardiac. I know more with my 17 years of experience as a nurse and NP than a vast majority of Doctors out there. Try this for a change…use your brain and ADD COMMON SENSE. Just because your an MD doesn't mean a thing.

Guess what they call the guy/girl in medical school who finishes at the bottom just nearly passing? …..Doctor..Duh But wait….just because they may not be book smart or did some specialty program doesn't mean they won't do circles around you CLINICALLY.






Anonymous said:
MBA and JD?

Dude you clearly are a rep, smoke man meat, and shower in the goo.

Yes, PharmDs are jokes. PhDs have the real brain power.

Go back to lunches and pens rep-bot. Gues your BA in Phys Ed makes you think you're smart???
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Anonymous said:
I'm a PharmD! Yes they gave me a doctorate title but I don't ever call myself a doctor. As far a medicine goes the amount of knowledge gained surpasses everyone in the health care profession! I can't tell you how many errors some life threatening that I have caught from the oversight of nurses and physicians. My job is important that is why I have a 120k + salary. The title is not why most pharmacist chose the career because they are never really addressed as such! It's sad that this is even a topic of discussion because most pharmacist don't care. Pay me a great salary for what you call just a masters degree makes me smarter than most!
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Funny I'm an oncology rep and my base is $152K with $50K bonus, company car and stock options...guess you're not as important as you think...or at least not compensated as such.
 






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