Never thought...


Well at least we agree on "MOST" non-specific screening for a prescribed product...We are taking baby steps... I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the other. If in the future you need a heart cath to determine open heart surgery on yourself please advise the medical team to do a "SCREEN" rather than the actual confirmed catheterization quantifying the actual blockage and wheter it is the LAD or the RAD artery. They can base your open heart surgery off of the "stetoscope screen". Its very comparable to a screening POC cup. They both have a high percentage of false positives and false negatives but you should be alright. Once they open you up and see that you are clear and actually did not need the bypass they will just stitch you up and you will be on your way. No big deal... Better you than me...I know you are going to say, "you can not compare an open heart surgery to drug testing" but you can. These patients are suffering everyday with excruciating pain and they deserve to be told an accurate result. Not a result that has a high probability of being wrong. They go to a professional doctor of medicine who has specialized in pain to get accurate results not results that "could possibly" be accurate. They could very easily be discharged from their pain management therapy based off of unscientific incorrect screening results and struggle for the rest of their lives. I know you do not think that is anything to care about but you obviously have not been in chronic pain. You seem to have the insurance companies views and not care about the patient and that is OK.... to each his own. Do not get sucked into believing screening has a medical purpose in pain management. It is great for employee/workplace testing but is too unreliable for pain management. I understand your position on cost but I am thinking more on a scientific level. Maybe they can reduce the confirmation reimbursement to that of a screening... Would you still think a screen is better if the cost was the same? In regards to your comments on insurance companies, the legal world and the government you must be new to healthcare. They try to control healthcare by telling the actual medical doctor(someone who actually went to medical school) how to treat their patients. The insurance companies do not even know the difference between a screen and a confirm. They just know the cost difference. Its all about the money to them and not about the actual health of the patient. They are not the one's that are going to have to be legally liable when the provider discharges a patient and accuses them of diversion when they were actually taking it. They are not the ones that are going to have to discharge a 80 year old women for SCREENING positive for THC when she actually was just taking a proton pump inhibitor for her gastric reflux. I know this is not open heart surgery but serious inaccuracies can happen if you base your practice off of screens. More than that the provider will have to start mowing lawns because he will not have any patients left. They all will have screened negative for their prescribed drug and accused of diversion. Its not a marketing ploy... facts are facts...science is science. Screens are unreliable and you can not base any decision off of them. I actually think screens are the problem. The doctors should not be able to bill for such unscientific garbage. They do not even use the results because they know they are wrong. The only reason providers screen is for the $$$. You say there is no legal requirement to confirm... There is no legal requirement to get an actual confirmed cath before an open heart bypass surgery but I believe there is an ethical and moral obligation to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that before a sternotomy is performed there is confirmed evidence and it is medically necessary. In closing... screens suck and confirms are medically necessary if you are a provider and want to stand behind your medical decision. You maybe correct though...With all of this governmental data Obamacare may be pushing those "stethoscope screens" for open hearts in the near future if its all about cost and not about patient care.

You are right, you cannot compare open heart screening to drug testing. Period. Two different diagnosis implications, time considerations and impact on life or death. To digress: You assume that a cath is a "must do" before bypass. Sorry but you'd kill a lot of patients with that silly point of view. Things like an EKG and blood SCREENING/level tests can be done before the need to cath. If the symptoms, EKG and blood work aligns, the cath is often bypassed. A better knowledge of medicine prior to pulling out more unrelated analogies might help.
"They are not the ones that are going to have to discharge a 80 year old women for SCREENING positive for THC when she actually was just taking a proton pump inhibitor for her gastric reflux." Once again, there is NO "have to" in this scenario. Nothing dictates the "have to" you describe. Not the government, insurance companies or more importantly, good standards and practices. It is the clinicians job to discover PPI utilization and rule out cross reactivity, not a labs. If medical decisions to keep that patient is made with a legitimate purpose, acting in the usual course of medical practice, and taking reasonable efforts to prevent abuse and diversion are done, the clinician is covered.
Insurance companies and the government do know the difference between test formats. That is why different codes are used and have been changing. They also have discovered that certain companies have been overdoing it. That has been the negative impact on healthcare. I have never stated that screening is better but pointed out that confirmation is not "required" for every patient. "At least 5 confirms" for every patient is certainly not needed.
 








You are right, you cannot compare open heart screening to drug testing. Period. Two different diagnosis implications, time considerations and impact on life or death. To digress: You assume that a cath is a "must do" before bypass. Sorry but you'd kill a lot of patients with that silly point of view. Things like an EKG and blood SCREENING/level tests can be done before the need to cath. If the symptoms, EKG and blood work aligns, the cath is often bypassed. A better knowledge of medicine prior to pulling out more unrelated analogies might help.
"They are not the ones that are going to have to discharge a 80 year old women for SCREENING positive for THC when she actually was just taking a proton pump inhibitor for her gastric reflux." Once again, there is NO "have to" in this scenario. Nothing dictates the "have to" you describe. Not the government, insurance companies or more importantly, good standards and practices. It is the clinicians job to discover PPI utilization and rule out cross reactivity, not a labs. If medical decisions to keep that patient is made with a legitimate purpose, acting in the usual course of medical practice, and taking reasonable efforts to prevent abuse and diversion are done, the clinician is covered.
Insurance companies and the government do know the difference between test formats. That is why different codes are used and have been changing. I have never stated that screening is better but pointed out that confirmation is not "required" for every patient. "At least 5 confirms" for every patient is certainly not needed.

I am obviously more conservative in patient care than you. You seem to base all medical decisions on screens whatever the medical implication. I can tell you are not in healthcare because this amateur thinking will get you in trouble. If time allows confirmation is a "must do" or a "have to" if you want to do what is best for the patient. Cardiac catheterization has long served as the “gold standard” for the anatomic and physiological assessment of patients with CHD. Real-time fluoroscopy with contrast injection coupled with rapid digital angiography has provided the high-resolution images of the heart necessary for successful surgical management. The direct measurement of pressures within cardiac chambers and great vessels helps to stratify patients according to risk, assists in evaluation of medical therapy, and helps to INDICATE A NEED for open heart surgery. With that said, I concur with your views of EKG, cardiac enzymes, etc. They are good screening tools and are much more reliable than $2.00 POC immunoassay screening cups for drug testing. Providers should not even be allowed to bill for them due to the unreliable results and insurance companies are slowly learning this. They are a drain on healthcare dollars if the provider's are not getting accurate results. Insurance companies have already started reducing the screening reimbursements because of all the doctors taking advantage. The majority of providers are getting reimbursed more money on screenings than confirmations because the doctors bill per dip stick. They are getting $300.00 reimbursements on a $2.00 cups. If that is not a drain on heathcare I do not know what is. Many providers are getting "recoupment" bills from insurance companies for these overages. In regards to, "They are not the ones that are going to have to discharge a 80 year old women for SCREENING positive for THC when she actually was just taking a proton pump inhibitor for her gastric reflux. Once again, you say there is NO "have to" in this scenario. Nothing dictates the "have to" you describe." I know there is no "have to" but it is a moral obligation that providers have to produce the most accurate results for their patients. In good faith I can not discharge a patient if there is a good chance I am discharging on false results. It is not fair to the patient. You mention, "It is the clinicians job to discover PPI utilization and rule out cross reactivity with THC, not a labs". Have you ever thought of patients taking PPI's and smoke marijuana concurrently. A confirmation will distinguish between a PPI and THC.
 








I am obviously more conservative in patient care than you. You seem to base all medical decisions on screens whatever the medical implication. I can tell you are not in healthcare because this amateur thinking will get you in trouble. If time allows confirmation is a "must do" or a "have to" if you want to do what is best for the patient. Cardiac catheterization has long served as the “gold standard” for the anatomic and physiological assessment of patients with CHD. Real-time fluoroscopy with contrast injection coupled with rapid digital angiography has provided the high-resolution images of the heart necessary for successful surgical management. The direct measurement of pressures within cardiac chambers and great vessels helps to stratify patients according to risk, assists in evaluation of medical therapy, and helps to INDICATE A NEED for open heart surgery. With that said, I concur with your views of EKG, cardiac enzymes, etc. They are good screening tools and are much more reliable than $2.00 POC immunoassay screening cups for drug testing. Providers should not even be allowed to bill for them due to the unreliable results and insurance companies are slowly learning this. They are a drain on healthcare dollars if the provider's are not getting accurate results. Insurance companies have already started reducing the screening reimbursements because of all the doctors taking advantage. The majority of providers are getting reimbursed more money on screenings than confirmations because the doctors bill per dip stick. They are getting $300.00 reimbursements on a $2.00 cups. If that is not a drain on heathcare I do not know what is. Many providers are getting "recoupment" bills from insurance companies for these overages. In regards to, "They are not the ones that are going to have to discharge a 80 year old women for SCREENING positive for THC when she actually was just taking a proton pump inhibitor for her gastric reflux. Once again, you say there is NO "have to" in this scenario. Nothing dictates the "have to" you describe." I know there is no "have to" but it is a moral obligation that providers have to produce the most accurate results for their patients. In good faith I can not discharge a patient if there is a good chance I am discharging on false results. It is not fair to the patient. You mention, "It is the clinicians job to discover PPI utilization and rule out cross reactivity with THC, not a labs". Have you ever thought of patients taking PPI's and smoke marijuana concurrently. A confirmation will distinguish between a PPI and THC.

Nice try in passing off yourself as a clinician Googlemaster: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/123/22/2607.full
Next time get a better and more specific resource without a cut and paste. Also note it is an article on peds, not someone presenting in an ER. Going to cath for every closed left main coronary artery or LAD is almost the kiss of death. You cannot compare these scenarios so lets move on please.
We will never agree that screening has a purpose. I do not believe it is more valuable that other testing and never made that statement.
I agree that $300 for a $2 cup is wrong. If you'd done your homework, the actual code for a cup returns about $20. I hope they are all asked for 'recoupment' since it is the clinician's job to know what code should be used.
Of course people can use PPI and smoke marijuana. Who says you have to discharge a patient for smoking?
 








Nice try in passing off yourself as a clinician Googlemaster: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/123/22/2607.full
Next time get a better and more specific resource without a cut and paste. Also note it is an article on peds, not someone presenting in an ER. Going to cath for every closed left main coronary artery or LAD is almost the kiss of death. You cannot compare these scenarios so lets move on please.
We will never agree that screening has a purpose. I do not believe it is more valuable that other testing and never made that statement.
I agree that $300 for a $2 cup is wrong. If you'd done your homework, the actual code for a cup returns about $20. I hope they are all asked for 'recoupment' since it is the clinician's job to know what code should be used.
Of course people can use PPI and smoke marijuana. Who says you have to discharge a patient for smoking?

You have to love someone for making an attempt to plagiarize an article. Everything they've mentioned up to this point is now null and void as they probably haven't had an original thought to date.
 








I do not know anything about a Millennium study....I have just seen the faulty screen results first hand. I saw a patient test positive for COC on a POC screen a couple weeks ago. Thankfully the provider knew screening results were a preliminary result and needed to be confirmed per the screening PI. The provider sent the sample for confirmation before he had to make the decision to discharge the patient from his practice. The confirmation results came back negative for COC. The patient did not get discharged off of a faulty unreliable screening result because the provider was educated enough to know a screen is unreliable has has a high percentage of false positives and false negatives. This is just one example of thousands why the screening cup PI says to get confirmation and the screening results are just preliminary.

The PI on your EIA, FPIA, or ELISA assay performed in your lab say the same thing. Positive results are preliminary and "should" be confirmed. Not negative results and not if your example of the 80 year old woman who screens positive for THC says to her doctor, " Yeah, I smoked a joint yesterday" The doctor does not "have to" confirm. He/She has confirmation from their patient they smoked. No need to bill the healthcare system for a confirmation, and certainly no reason to confirm negative screens that are consistent with expected results on the remaining tests.
 








The PI on your EIA, FPIA, or ELISA assay performed in your lab say the same thing. Positive results are preliminary and "should" be confirmed. Not negative results and not if your example of the 80 year old woman who screens positive for THC says to her doctor, " Yeah, I smoked a joint yesterday" The doctor does not "have to" confirm. He/She has confirmation from their patient they smoked. No need to bill the healthcare system for a confirmation, and certainly no reason to confirm negative screens that are consistent with expected results on the remaining tests.

And this poster didn't even have to plagiarize an article to make people believe they were smarter or more educated.
 








Nice try in passing off yourself as a clinician Googlemaster: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/123/22/2607.full
Next time get a better and more specific resource without a cut and paste. Also note it is an article on peds, not someone presenting in an ER. Going to cath for every closed left main coronary artery or LAD is almost the kiss of death. You cannot compare these scenarios so lets move on please.
We will never agree that screening has a purpose. I do not believe it is more valuable that other testing and never made that statement.
I agree that $300 for a $2 cup is wrong. If you'd done your homework, the actual code for a cup returns about $20. I hope they are all asked for 'recoupment' since it is the clinician's job to know what code should be used.
Of course people can use PPI and smoke marijuana. Who says you have to discharge a patient for smoking?

2014: The year of "recoupment". It has begun already. A tsunami is silent, until it crashes against the shore. Listen. Listen. It is coming for you.
 








The PI on your EIA, FPIA, or ELISA assay performed in your lab say the same thing. Positive results are preliminary and "should" be confirmed. Not negative results and not if your example of the 80 year old woman who screens positive for THC says to her doctor, " Yeah, I smoked a joint yesterday" The doctor does not "have to" confirm. He/She has confirmation from their patient they smoked. No need to bill the healthcare system for a confirmation, and certainly no reason to confirm negative screens that are consistent with expected results on the remaining tests.

What if the screen does not pick up the metabolites of the prescribed drug? Should this be confirmed or should you discharge the patient on a screen?
 
















What if the screen does not pick up the metabolites of the prescribed drug? Should this be confirmed or should you discharge the patient on a screen?

A redo of previous discussion. If the patient admits, it is the clinicians call. Should probably be based on more than the admission of THC but doesn't necessarily mean "confirm always".

Let the googling begin
 








A redo of previous discussion. If the patient admits, it is the clinicians call. Should probably be based on more than the admission of THC but doesn't necessarily mean "confirm always".

Let the googling begin

Yes, I understand THC if the patient admits. What if the patient tests negative for prescribed opiates, etc? Do you discharge the patient based on a negative screen?
 
















It depends. Typically not for opioid screens unless there are other factors involved.

I got ya. So you confirm all prescribed drugs that are negative on a screen if the patient says they are taking them and not selling. You would also confirm a THC positive screen if the patient does not admit correct?
 








I got ya. So you confirm all prescribed drugs that are negative on a screen if the patient says they are taking them and not selling. You would also confirm a THC positive screen if the patient does not admit correct?

Not necessarily. A lot more goes into it then just two simple observations. That is why training is important. It certainly is not "confirm everything" that fits simple categories.