In the News....

[Man For All Seasons]

I was not talking about China either. The images used here in America come from procedures in China or historic back-alley procedures. If you read the laws on abortion, you will see that even with it being legal, there are many restrictions in the U.S. You cannot possibly buy into those images as being anything but inflammatory? Number one: most abortions (90 percent) are before the 6th week. The tissue is a white blob that looks like a wad of gum. There is almost no blood. There are certainly no "body parts". Number two: the images on those trucks are primarily LATE term abortions which are NOT done in this country unless extreme medical necessity. Images like these prevent people from making decisions because they do nothing but use fear tactics. I find it deplorable and, if one came to my town, I would go out of my way to file a lawsuit against them. This is no different than showing images of child porn in hopes of preventing it. Showing images of war never stopped it. Showing images of animal abuse does not stop it. Abortion is legal. Destorting the perception of a legal surgical proceedural is probably a form of interference with the surgeon's or clinic's economic advantage. It could also be misleading. This would be like being against plastic surgery and finding a bunch of surgical mistakes to highlight your cause! I am sorry but I think it is time for the quiet majority that sits and tolerates prolife hate to be equally as pushy and perhaps start running a good offense themselves.

The reason this is a no win debate is that even when abortion was illegal approximately 1.2 million were performed annually.

Great defense of free speech! It is very distasteful, but then so is the REALITY of what happens in an abortion. The images are meant to be inflamatory. Many abortions take place past the 6th week and partial birth abortion was legal until quite recently. There are elements of the pro-abortion movement who are still barbaric enough to support it.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

It's interesting that some of us support abortion and the death penalty, some are against both and some support the death penalty but not abortion. I'm not in a swinging contest anymore than anyone else. We live in an orderly society where the majority rules. I see irony in states that allow abortion but not the death penalty ut my personal fe3eling is that the remedy is to get on with the capital punishment and keep the freedom of choice.

The divide stems from whether or not you believe the fetus is part of the mother or a separate, sustainable entity. The scientific fact is that it is a separate entity and just as "sustainable as a newborn. This question is not open for debate and is why pro-abortionists such as you have no rational argument.I believe the first of those two choices but willing to go along with what the majority rules.If abortion were put up to a referendum, it would lose. We have abortion because of an absurd and unconstitutional ruling of the SCOTUS, not because the majority want it.

We're in one of those revolving door discussions where all we're doing is going round and round so I'm gonna bail to the next topic. Happy Sunday everybody - summer's almost here.

Yep, folks like you go round and round because you will not acknowledge the facts and apply morality and logic. Abortion devalues human life and is significantly responsible for the mess our culture is currently. Our culture was much better off before widespread legalized abortion. The correlation is extremely strong, but abortion supporters like you and GG can't afford to acknowledge this.

 

[Walking Eagle]

GG. If Obama care as it is written had been in effect when you went through your two year illness, it is very likely you would have been "aborted" as a drain on the medical system and economy and we would not have you as a Pharma friend.....

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

Yep, folks like you go round and round because you will not acknowledge the facts and apply morality and logic. Abortion devalues human life and is significantly responsible for the mess our culture is currently. Our culture was much better off before widespread legalized abortion. The correlation is extremely strong, but abortion supporters like you and GG can't afford to acknowledge this.

Show me one recent peer reviewed journal statistic that has proven this hogwash! Seriously, I would like to see one (nonChristian) scientific or sociology journal that found a significant correlation between abortion and "the mess our culture is currently." First, you have to prove we are really in a mess and define it. Then, you have to prove that abortion caused it. Please show me one. I know for a fact I can find numerous articles on abortion and fatherlessness; abortion and educational attainment; abortion and number of children in the home/poverty level and number of fathers; and on and on. All actually in favor of abortion having a social benefit. In fact, in our last debate, I cut and pasted the links. You keep saying this over and over but I have never seen one study to prove it. Just a heads up there, abortion has actually been legal in many states back in the 1960s and 70s. It became illegal back in the 1800s and, as medicine improved, more states approved the procedure when medically necessary. Revisiting Roe Wade actually imposed new restrictions. Prolife appealed to have RW overturned completely and were denied on four separate sessions by the Supreme Court. But, hey, I guess you know best what is good for society.

65% of procedures are before 6 weeks (that is a "majority") and nearly 95% are before 13 weeks (so within the first trimester as stated!) and the rate of overall procedures continues to decline. These are 2007 CDC stats and procedures before the six week mark continue to increase thanks to more rapid OTC pregnancy testing. However, I will say it again. I am not as big an advocate after 6 weeks unless it is for the health of the mother. The problem with this debate is it solves nothing. Illegal or legal, abortion has always and will always be around. I think safe houses for pregnant girls to stay who don't have family support and more people willing to adopt with easier adoption procedures would help much more than buses with grossly distorted pictures that represent less than 1% of all abortions performed. Seriously, what an incredible and evil waste of money, effort and time.

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

GG. If Obama care as it is written had been in effect when you went through your two year illness, it is very likely you would have been "aborted" as a drain on the medical system and economy and we would not have you as a Pharma friend.....

Drain? LOL. My insurance dumped me. I had to file a lawsuit to collect a paycheck again and get medical care, and I WON! BTW. Your comment here makes no sense. I am guessing you are trying to make a joke of some sort between my belief that teen pregnancy drains the system and my illness, but you have lost me on this one. Have no fear, I do not plan on being a drain on the system that is why I have a whole lot of pills. I will never be that sick again and have no desire to "fight" my way back. Fuck it.

 

[Vagitarian]

Yep, folks like you go round and round because you will not acknowledge the facts and apply morality and logic. Abortion devalues human life and is significantly responsible for the mess our culture is currently. Our culture was much better off before widespread legalized abortion. The correlation is extremely strong, but abortion supporters like you and GG can't afford to acknowledge this.

If 'heaven' is such a wonderful place, life everlasting and the ultimate eternal reward where you live forever and ever amen - what's the big deal about an aborted fetus? Doesn't their 'soul' go direcetly to heaven where the (supposedly) good eternal iife is?

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

If 'heaven' is such a wonderful place, life everlasting and the ultimate eternal reward where you live forever and ever amen - what's the big deal about an aborted fetus? Doesn't their 'soul' go direcetly to heaven where the (supposedly) good eternal iife is?

Exactly! I have wondered this very same thing. We should all be very excited to get "there." However, I think all life is energy and it is simply recycled perhaps other lives, perhaps just life in general. I do not think death is the end to anything. . . There are many, many worse things than to die. I feel like shit on so many days that I am often excited to just get there. Really. (Not nuts, not sad, but ready to go.)

 

[Walking Eagle]

Drain? LOL. My insurance dumped me. I had to file a lawsuit to collect a paycheck again and get medical care, and I WON! BTW. Your comment here makes no sense. I am guessing you are trying to make a joke of some sort between my belief that teen pregnancy drains the system and my illness, but you have lost me on this one. Have no fear, I do not plan on being a drain on the system that is why I have a whole lot of pills. I will never be that sick again and have no desire to "fight" my way back. Fuck it.

Post was trying to make a point about the direction of health care in general. Obama care provides for refusing care for elderly or chronically ill deemed as being hopeless. If you had been under the proposed system instead of private care (sorry about the way your situation was handled) you might have just been sent home to die with no meds, etc.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

If 'heaven' is such a wonderful place, life everlasting and the ultimate eternal reward where you live forever and ever amen - what's the big deal about an aborted fetus? Doesn't their 'soul' go direcetly to heaven where the (supposedly) good eternal iife is?

The timing should be left to God, not to us. That's for starters. Once conception takes place, everything changes. From conception to natural death is the way it should work.

The real problem with abortion is not what it does to the fetus, but what it does to us. The aborted babies go to Heaven, we are in danger of Hell for aborting them. See how that works?

 

[Man For All Seasons]

Show me one recent peer reviewed journal statistic that has proven this hogwash! Seriously, I would like to see one (nonChristian) scientific or sociology journal that found a significant correlation between abortion and "the mess our culture is currently." First, you have to prove we are really in a mess and define it. Then, you have to prove that abortion caused it. Please show me one. I know for a fact I can find numerous articles on abortion and fatherlessness; abortion and educational attainment; abortion and number of children in the home/poverty level and number of fathers; and on and on. You could just as easily replace abortion with pregant out of wedlock and see a lot of the same correlations!All actually in favor of abortion having a social benefit. Not getting pregnant out of wedlock definitely has a social benefit. The jury is in absolute monogamy has a social benefit, but you sure don't want to support that, now do you?In fact, in our last debate, I cut and pasted the links. You keep saying this over and over but I have never seen one study to prove it.

65% of procedures are before 6 weeks (that is a "majority") and nearly 95% are before 13 weeks (so within the first trimester as stated!) and the rate of overall procedures continues to decline. These are 2007 CDC stats and procedures before the six week mark continue to increase thanks to more rapid OTC pregnancy testing. However, I will say it again. I am not as big an advocate after 6 weeks unless it is for the health of the mother. The problem with this debate is it solves nothing. Yeah, I'd expect someone who is getting their way at the moment to say such a thing.Illegal or legal, abortion has always and will always be around. I think safe houses for pregnant girls to stay who don't have family support and more people willing to adopt with easier adoption procedures would help much more than buses with grossly distorted pictures that represent less than 1% of all abortions performed. Seriously, what an incredible and evil waste of money, effort and time.

Defending life is never an evil wast of money, effort and time.

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

Post was trying to make a point about the direction of health care in general. Obama care provides for refusing care for elderly or chronically ill deemed as being hopeless. If you had been under the proposed system instead of private care (sorry about the way your situation was handled) you might have just been sent home to die with no meds, etc.

Doubt it. I think we are screwed either way. I know of too many people who have battled private insurance companies and been denied while critically ill. Some of my friends have died and never did get justice. Add what you're telling me, and it sound like more money for all the elite and less money/benefits for the working class. It is upon us: We are now a nation of the haves and the have nots, the rich and the poor. Greed did this pure and simple.

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

Defending life is never an evil wast of money, effort and time.

Except picking the "sword" is never a winning situation. Never. So, it depends how you want to go about defending life and what you are defending. Defending a slogan means absolutely nothing. Getting to the core of a social or ethical problem with real solutions is a far better road than taking an adversarial stance.

"pregnant out of wedlock" correlations? Nope. You cannot. Abortion actually is an improvement for this group of girls. Have one child out of wedlock and your are far more likely to have two or three usually with different fathers cementing the mother and her children in a life of poverty. Have an abortion and the teenager is significantly more likely to finish school and never have another abortion while waiting and being married for subsequent children. That, my feathered friend, is a studied fact. I think the path you'd like to go down is an abstinence only one. You would be right that this may very well produce an ideal result. There were several groups that were successful in promoting this agenda. It is not and has never been widely adopted. I honestly do not know what happened to it. I was part of group assignment in sociology to find a program that could make a real difference. We found an abstinence program that worked and had repeated success. Perhaps that would have been a better use of "church" funding than busses with posters. JMTC

 

[Man For All Seasons]

Doubt it. I think we are screwed either way. I know of too many people who have battled private insurance companies and been denied while critically ill. Some of my friends have died and never did get justice. Add what you're telling me, and it sound like more money for all the elite and less money/benefits for the working class. It is upon us: We are now a nation of the haves and the have nots, the rich and the poor. Greed did this pure and simple.

When we realize that there is no utopia, then it's easy to see that there is one answer which is not greed, it is big government interfering in the free market. If we had a truly free market health care system, we would be far, far better off.

 

[Man For All Seasons]

Except picking the "sword" is never a winning situation. Never. So, it depends how you want to go about defending life and what you are defending. Defending a slogan means absolutely nothing. Getting to the core of a social or ethical problem with real solutions is a far better road than taking an adversarial stance.

"pregnant out of wedlock" correlations? Nope.YEP! You cannot. Abortion actually is an improvement for this group of girls. Have one child out of wedlock and your are far more likely to have two or three usually with different fathers cementing the mother and her children in a life of poverty. Have an abortion and the teenager is significantly more likely to finish school and never have another abortion while waiting and being married for subsequent children. That, my feathered friend, is a studied fact. I think the path you'd like to go down is an abstinence only one. Yep, being rational and relying upon the empirical data that it is the BEST way, I sure am.You would be right that this may very well produce an ideal result. There were several groups that were successful in promoting this agenda. It is not and has never been widely adopted. I honestly do not know what happened to it. I was part of group assignment in sociology to find a program that could make a real difference. We found an abstinence program that worked and had repeated success. Perhaps that would have been a better use of "church" funding than busses with posters. JMTC

Plenty of funds to do both if that is what individual groups choose to do.

The data you are looking for can be found in Bill Bennett's book, "The Index of Leading Cultural Indicators". Our society has definitely declined and that decline is highly correlated with the sexual revolution and the advent of widespread abortion. You have to work really hard to not understand that this correlation can hardly be a mere coincidence. I've pointed you to the proof. The rest is up to you. Oh, and there is even a chapter on abortion in the book AND the data is solid.

 

[GorgeousGAMS]

Ah, the joy of data. Read David Blankenhorn's Fatherless American. All of my stats are there with the exception of the CDC data. This includes what happens when a teenager has the out-of-wedlock child verses choosing to get an abortion. I am vaguely familar with the book you mentioned and the arguments you make. What we have here is data from two very different discplines that find different conclusions. Blankenhorn proposes realistic achievable solutions. I have a funny feeling yours will propose idealism. While I do not think you have to be Christian to have Christian values, I do not think there is any one perfect solution to any of our social ills. When it gets right down to it, we are looking at good and evil in all its many forms. There is no way to have a society that is "good" because people are both good and evil and always will be as long as we walk the earth.

BTW: with so many factors that make up a society, IT could be merely coincidence and the sexual revolution may have nothing to do with the problems of today. (Denmark seems to have few social problems at all and they are a very liberal culture.)

 

[Man For All Seasons]

Ah, the joy of data. Read David Blankenhorn's Fatherless American. All of my stats are there with the exception of the CDC data. This includes what happens when a teenager has the out-of-wedlock child verses choosing to get an abortion.I don't argue that to not have a child is better, but is best to not have a child because you never got pregnant to begin with. That is the best of all. Allowing abortion has huge societal costs as well as some practical benefits. I am vaguely familar with the book you mentioned and the arguments you make. What we have here is data from two very different discplines that find different conclusions. The data set is the same. The conclusions may be different, but the essential data sets are the same.Blankenhorn proposes realistic achievable solutions. I have a funny feeling yours will propose idealism. What I propose is the best, not the perfect. You want to "define deviancy down" and call that the proposal of "realistic achievable solutions" What I propose is every bit as achievable since it is at one time what our society DID achieve. We CAN turn back the clock. We are masters of our fate in this respect. It is essentially ALL self-determinism.While I do not think you have to be Christian to have Christian values, I do not think there is any one perfect solution to any of our social ills. No, but there are distinctly better and distinctly worse solutions. The Christian solutions are demonstrably better. When it gets right down to it, we are looking at good and evil in all its many forms. There is no way to have a society that is "good" because people are both good and evil and always will be as long as we walk the earth.We had one at one time that was distinctly better in most, but not all, categories.

BTW: with so many factors that make up a society, IT could be merely coincidence and the sexual revolution may have nothing to do with the problems of today. (Denmark seems to have few social problems at all and they are a very liberal culture.)

When you examine the increase in negative behaviors associated with sexual behavior, it is virtually impossible to rationally ascribe them to anything other than the sexual revolution.

 

[Vagitarian]

The timing should be left to God, not to us. That's for starters. Once conception takes place, everything changes. From conception to natural death is the way it should work.

The real problem with abortion is not what it does to the fetus, but what it does to us. The aborted babies go to Heaven, we are in danger of Hell for aborting them. See how that works?

So you pretend to feel badly for the pooooor, defenseless babies but in fact your primary concern is - what does (your) god think of us? In that case, the babies are fine and everyone who doesn't believe in abortion is fine - again - what's the fucking worry? "

"Oh what a friend we have in jesus ~ jesus is just all right with me......."

 

[Man For All Seasons]

So you pretend to feel badly for the pooooor, defenseless babies but in fact your primary concern is - what does (your) god think of us? In that case, the babies are fine and everyone who doesn't believe in abortion is fine - again - what's the fucking worry? "

"Oh what a friend we have in jesus ~ jesus is just all right with me......."

Why do you want to act in such a ridiculous way? You asked me a specific theological question and I answered it. For you to go off on this rant shows you once again to be intellectually incompetent.