Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Cost


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May 20, 2013 — A new report suggests that improved health care and significant reductions in drug costs might be attained by breaking up the age-old relationship between physicians and drug company representatives who promote the newest, more costly and often unnecessary prescription drugs.

This system, which has been in place for decades, at one time benefited doctors by keeping them up to date on new medications, and always provided generous amounts of "free" samples to get patients started on the newest drugs, as well as other supplies and gifts.
But it's actually a powerful marketing process into which the pharmaceutical industry pours tens of billions of dollars a year, with more than 90,000 drug representatives providing gifts and advice. There is one drug representative for every eight doctors in the United States. This doesn't necessarily serve the best interests of the patient in terms of economy, efficacy, safety or accuracy of information, experts say.
In one of the first reports of its type -- titled "Breaking Up is Hard to Do" -- researchers from Oregon State University, Oregon Health & Science University and the University of Washington outlined the deliberate process that one central Oregon medical clinic went through to remove drug company representatives from their practice. It explored the obstacles they faced and the ultimate, successful result. The findings were just published in the Journal of the American Board of Family Medicine.

The study found that avoiding conflicts of interest and becoming "pharma-free" is possible, but not easy.

"This is a culture change, one that's already happening but still has a ways to go, especially in smaller private practices," said Dr. David Evans, now with the Department of Family Medicine at the University of Washington, and previously a physician at the Madras, Ore., clinic featured in the article.

"The relationship between physicians and drug company representatives goes back generations, and it took a methodical, deliberate campaign to change it," Evans said. "We ultimately decided something had to be done when our medical clinic was visited by drug reps 199 times in six months. That number was just staggering."

Part of what allows the change, the researchers said, is that information on new medications is now available in many other forums. These may have less bias and be more evidence-based than the material traditionally provided by the pharmaceutical industry, which wanted to sell the latest product. In the Madras clinic, the physicians replaced information previously supplied by drug reps with monthly meetings to stay current on new medications, based on peer-reviewed, rather than promotional literature.
"In the past 5-10 years there's been more of a move toward what we call 'academic detailing,' in which universities and other impartial sources of information can provide accurate information without bias," said Daniel Hartung, assistant professor in the OSU College of Pharmacy. "This is being supported by some states and the federal government, and it's a move in the right direction."

Moves to separate the drug industry from the practice of medicine have been more aggressive in large medical teaching hospitals, Hartung said, but much less so in smaller private practice. Of the 800,000 physicians in the U.S., only 22 percent practice in academic settings, the study noted, and 84 percent of primary care physicians still have close relationships with the pharmaceutical industry.

The stakes can be high, the researchers said. In the study example, the "sample cabinet" of medications at the Madras clinic, provided for free by the pharmaceutical representatives, had an average price of $90 for a month's supply of the medications. Less expensive, generic medications were identified for 38 of the 46 sample drugs, which would have cost $22 a month.

The new analysis explored the necessary steps that a private clinic can take to help address this concern, including quantifying the clinic-industry relationship, anticipating clinician and staff concerns, finding new ways to provide up-to-date information, and educating patients and the public.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...iencedaily+(ScienceDaily:+Latest+Science+News)
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

academic study with by experimental / empirical evidence proving that pharma sales reps are parasites.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

May 20, 2013 — A new report suggests that improved health care and significant reductions in drug costs might be attained by breaking up the age-old relationship between physicians and drug company representatives who promote the newest, more costly and often unnecessary prescription drugs.

This system, which has been in place for decades, at one time benefited doctors by keeping them up to date on new medications, and always provided generous amounts of "free" samples to get patients started on the newest drugs, as well as other supplies and gifts.
But it's actually a powerful marketing process into which the pharmaceutical industry pours tens of billions of dollars a year, with more than 90,000 drug representatives providing gifts and advice. There is one drug representative for every eight doctors in the United States. This doesn't necessarily serve the best interests of the patient in terms of economy, efficacy, safety or accuracy of information, experts say.
In one of the first reports of its type -- titled "Breaking Up is Hard to Do" -- researchers from Oregon State University, Oregon Health & Science University and the University of Washington outlined the deliberate process that one central Oregon medical clinic went through to remove drug company representatives from their practice. It explored the obstacles they faced and the ultimate, successful result. The findings were just published in the Journal of the American Board of Family Medicine.

The study found that avoiding conflicts of interest and becoming "pharma-free" is possible, but not easy.

"This is a culture change, one that's already happening but still has a ways to go, especially in smaller private practices," said Dr. David Evans, now with the Department of Family Medicine at the University of Washington, and previously a physician at the Madras, Ore., clinic featured in the article.

"The relationship between physicians and drug company representatives goes back generations, and it took a methodical, deliberate campaign to change it," Evans said. "We ultimately decided something had to be done when our medical clinic was visited by drug reps 199 times in six months. That number was just staggering."

Part of what allows the change, the researchers said, is that information on new medications is now available in many other forums. These may have less bias and be more evidence-based than the material traditionally provided by the pharmaceutical industry, which wanted to sell the latest product. In the Madras clinic, the physicians replaced information previously supplied by drug reps with monthly meetings to stay current on new medications, based on peer-reviewed, rather than promotional literature.
"In the past 5-10 years there's been more of a move toward what we call 'academic detailing,' in which universities and other impartial sources of information can provide accurate information without bias," said Daniel Hartung, assistant professor in the OSU College of Pharmacy. "This is being supported by some states and the federal government, and it's a move in the right direction."

Moves to separate the drug industry from the practice of medicine have been more aggressive in large medical teaching hospitals, Hartung said, but much less so in smaller private practice. Of the 800,000 physicians in the U.S., only 22 percent practice in academic settings, the study noted, and 84 percent of primary care physicians still have close relationships with the pharmaceutical industry.

The stakes can be high, the researchers said. In the study example, the "sample cabinet" of medications at the Madras clinic, provided for free by the pharmaceutical representatives, had an average price of $90 for a month's supply of the medications. Less expensive, generic medications were identified for 38 of the 46 sample drugs, which would have cost $22 a month.

The new analysis explored the necessary steps that a private clinic can take to help address this concern, including quantifying the clinic-industry relationship, anticipating clinician and staff concerns, finding new ways to provide up-to-date information, and educating patients and the public.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...iencedaily+(ScienceDaily:+Latest+Science+News)

Talking about conflict of interests, sounds like Science Daily did a study with the intent to eliminate its competition and be the sole source of " unbiased" information.... How amusing!
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

Talking about conflict of interests, sounds like Science Daily did a study with the intent to eliminate its competition and be the sole source of " unbiased" information.... How amusing!

I realize that Pharma Sales Reps aren't known for you intelligence but the Study was "produced" by the website Science Daily, only re-published by them. If you could read and intelligently understand what was written in this article you would see that the study was conducted by public academic medical institution and published in a peer reviewed medical journal.

The only amusing part is how fucking stupid you are.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

And your lack of intelligence is another reason why paying you and your colleagues to perform a non-value added function is so galling.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

So let's do a quick analysis using facts from this study, shall we?

For a "sample cabinet" of drugs":

# Drugs Cost Total
Pharma Drugs 46 $90 $4140
Generics 38 $22 $836
Pharma Drugs with no generic substitute 8 $90 $720

So the total cost of the "sample cabinet" filled with Pharma Drugs is $4140
And the total cost of the "sample cabinet" filled with Generics plus Pharma drugs that can't be replaced by Generics is $836 + $720 = $1556.

So the percentage increase in the cost of the drugs in the "sample cabinet" due to your efforts is ($4140 - $1156) / $4140 = 62%

Then, let's calculate what it costs the US Healthcare System to pay for you parasites:

The study says that there are 90,000 Pharma Reps in the US. And if we estimate that your costs are $300,000 / yr (that includes salary, bene's, travel, sales promos, gifts, speaker programs etc) then the total cost is 90,000 x $300,000 = $27B / yr.

So the US Health Care System spends $27 B / yr so that we pay 62% more for our drugs.

Nice!
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

lets pull all the sales reps out of the field, drive down profits for pharma, how many new drugs would be developed= NONE.
The fact that diabetics are living longer, heart failure patients living 10-15 years longer than before all due to new medications.
Remember there would be no GENERICS if not for brand name. These big teaching hospitals want to limit or exclude reps but when they need a research grant who do they ask?
If the govt and states continue to to pass guidelines/laws to restrict reps I will bet that new drug development will decrease.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

Restriction in major institutions is not governmental as the writer would like to imply. It is often a result of the total lack of professionalism, and the aggressive marketing of our industry. When physicians have 30+ drug reps waltz through the halls every day, it offers no value to the patient. In the days when we actually offered a service and partnership to the physicians we could justify our jobs and keep our heads up. Reading a sales aid to the staff--not so much
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

So let's do a quick analysis using facts from this study, shall we?

For a "sample cabinet" of drugs":

# Drugs Cost Total
Pharma Drugs 46 $90 $4140
Generics 38 $22 $836
Pharma Drugs with no generic substitute 8 $90 $720

So the total cost of the "sample cabinet" filled with Pharma Drugs is $4140
And the total cost of the "sample cabinet" filled with Generics plus Pharma drugs that can't be replaced by Generics is $836 + $720 = $1556.

So the percentage increase in the cost of the drugs in the "sample cabinet" due to your efforts is ($4140 - $1156) / $4140 = 62%

Then, let's calculate what it costs the US Healthcare System to pay for you parasites:

The study says that there are 90,000 Pharma Reps in the US. And if we estimate that your costs are $300,000 / yr (that includes salary, bene's, travel, sales promos, gifts, speaker programs etc) then the total cost is 90,000 x $300,000 = $27B / yr.

So the US Health Care System spends $27 B / yr so that we pay 62% more for our drugs.

Nice!

It's called The Free-Market... Deal with it, ya socialist moron! Last time I checked, the US Healthcare system didn't pay me a dime. Nobody is forcing docs to prescribe branded meds and nobody is forcing anyone to buy them.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

I realize that Pharma Sales Reps aren't known for you intelligence but the Study was "produced" by the website Science Daily, only re-published by them. If you could read and intelligently understand what was written in this article you would see that the study was conducted by public academic medical institution and published in a peer reviewed medical journal.

The only amusing part is how fucking stupid you are.

Peer reviewed journal, huh? They accepted a study based on this: Results Three physicians and 3 nurses participated in the study. There was consensus on the existence and effectiveness of the clinic policy. Key themes identified from both groups of interviewees included the perception of enhanced clinic operation after eliminating interruptions from pharmaceutical representatives, positive response from the public, and reduced diversion of samples for personal use. Clinicians interviewed agreed that samples were of questionable benefit, that information obtained from industry representatives was incomplete or of questionable veracity or objectivity, and that it was helpful to substitute other drug information sources and clinic-sponsored lunches for past industry offerings.

3 docs and 3 nurses? Wow.... I wonder if any of those healthcare professionals would accept a study of that sort? They would COMPLETELY dismiss it as TOTALLY unreliable based on the low amount of participants. Their anecdotal evidence and opinion will be duely noted as will their COMPLETE HYPOCRACY!

http://www.jfponline.com/Pages.asp?AID=9786
 









Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

Now they should review "How Breaking up with the Government would Improve Healthcare".

Review how much more it costs for Government involvement (plus, ObamaCare alone is running doctors out of business and creating a shortage)...mandated EMR to extra personnell trying to collect Medicaid and Medicare. I bet the overall costs to the system are 20 to 50 times more than on average one rep a day stopping in to leave a sample (6 months and 199 reps). And how did those generic samples get in the closet...reps? ...and if a rep did it, were they counted for the process or against?

And BTW, would you prefer a generic from a third world country, taken 3x a day with more SE's or the newer once a day with fewer SE's and QoL.....generics may lead to compliance issues that lead to disease progression or death? Something to consider.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

lets pull all the sales reps out of the field, drive down profits for pharma, how many new drugs would be developed= NONE.
The fact that diabetics are living longer, heart failure patients living 10-15 years longer than before all due to new medications.
Remember there would be no GENERICS if not for brand name. These big teaching hospitals want to limit or exclude reps but when they need a research grant who do they ask?
If the govt and states continue to to pass guidelines/laws to restrict reps I will bet that new drug development will decrease.

So if three are fewer diabetes reps, there will be less diabetes patients? Wrong, drug companies will still have to innovate and produce drugs that are clinically different. Think about it, what do you actually bring to the doctor in terms of value? The answer is information about your drug, oh, and sandwiches mainly.

Why cant the doctor just get this information from the internet from objective third parties? Why couldnt doctors simply contact your company for information, at which time a trained medical professional could present /answer questions via WEBEX etc.? Why can a doctor simply request samples, when needed? What %age of calls to a given doctor, do you even provide them with new information? You know that it is rare, lets be honest.

The bottomline is that the assessment of the study are absolutely correct,, there really is no need for drug reps any more, from the providers perspective. I challenge ANYONE to tell us what a drug rep can do, that can not be done via the internet, telephone, UPS; besides serve sandwiches! Drug reps really are a highly paid drain on the medical ecosystem. Drug reps are more like lobbyists than salespeople. We pressure doctors into prescribing our products, vs our competition. In almost all cases, the patient would do just as well with the competition, or even a virtually free generic. This is great for us, but what does the doctor really get?
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

It's called The Free-Market... Deal with it, ya socialist moron! Last time I checked, the US Healthcare system didn't pay me a dime. Nobody is forcing docs to prescribe branded meds and nobody is forcing anyone to buy them.

Wrong answer! Drug reps pressure docs to prescribe. An example generic lipitor. This was a 15 billion dollar a year product that was CLEARLY efficacious, arguably maybe the best by far. Now that the drug can be had for pennies, why would anyone be on anything else since know drug offers a significant clinical benefit? The answer is pharma pressure via rep. Generic drugs are exactly as efficacious as generics, and are 99% cheaper.

Due to this pressure, drug companies bilk billions from the system, but what do the doctors get? What do the patients get? If drug companies want to be rewarded, they need to innovate beyond "Me-too" efficacy. When there is no clear clinical benefit, insurers should force patients to pay the difference between generics and branded. Many are doing so now, and this should continue. If you think it is OK to pay $100/month vs $3/mth for the same result, well lets see if you feel the same when its your own money. I know when its MY money, Im chosing the generic 100% of the time.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

Wrong answer! Drug reps pressure docs to prescribe. An example generic lipitor. This was a 15 billion dollar a year product that was CLEARLY efficacious, arguably maybe the best by far. Now that the drug can be had for pennies, why would anyone be on anything else since know drug offers a significant clinical benefit? The answer is pharma pressure via rep. Generic drugs are exactly as efficacious as generics, and are 99% cheaper.

Due to this pressure, drug companies bilk billions from the system, but what do the doctors get? What do the patients get? If drug companies want to be rewarded, they need to innovate beyond "Me-too" efficacy. When there is no clear clinical benefit, insurers should force patients to pay the difference between generics and branded. Many are doing so now, and this should continue. If you think it is OK to pay $100/month vs $3/mth for the same result, well lets see if you feel the same when its your own money. I know when its MY money, Im chosing the generic 100% of the time.

If morons like you ran the world, there would be no Lipitor. It is because Lipitor made $15 billion that it will fuel the next innovation. According to your logic, the only reason Lipitor made $15 billion is because some pharma rep. forced doctors to prescribe it.... so while Lipitor was branded, you were the moron bitchin' about it, but now that its generic you think its great?!? You morons make no sense.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

So if three are fewer diabetes reps, there will be less diabetes patients? Wrong, drug companies will still have to innovate and produce drugs that are clinically different. Think about it, what do you actually bring to the doctor in terms of value? The answer is information about your drug, oh, and sandwiches mainly.

Why cant the doctor just get this information from the internet from objective third parties? Why couldnt doctors simply contact your company for information, at which time a trained medical professional could present /answer questions via WEBEX etc.? Why can a doctor simply request samples, when needed? What %age of calls to a given doctor, do you even provide them with new information? You know that it is rare, lets be honest.

The bottomline is that the assessment of the study are absolutely correct,, there really is no need for drug reps any more, from the providers perspective. I challenge ANYONE to tell us what a drug rep can do, that can not be done via the internet, telephone, UPS; besides serve sandwiches! Drug reps really are a highly paid drain on the medical ecosystem. Drug reps are more like lobbyists than salespeople. We pressure doctors into prescribing our products, vs our competition. In almost all cases, the patient would do just as well with the competition, or even a virtually free generic. This is great for us, but what does the doctor really get?

Earth to moron.... Come in moron. Companies don't "have to make" anything. If they can not make an acceptable profit, you can kiss innovation goodbye. Have you ever taken a basic economics class?
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

The morons here are the ones that haven't even read the results of the study yet feel free to comment anyway.

The study does not say that Pharma shouldn't make money selling drugs that they have developed WHEN THEY ARE INNOVATIONS. The Study points out that 38 of the 46 drugs in the "sample cabinet" are not INNOVATIONS they are simply branded drugs that Pharma has developed and are paying people like you to push on informed Docs. It even says that in practices where "Academic Detailing" you guys get your asses kicked.

The other 8 drugs should be sold and marketed and the profits used to develop other drugs.

Every penny spent by the Docs on the 38 branded drugs instead of the Generic equivalents are, by definition, a waste of money and is STOLEN from the US Health Care System. So, 36 / 48 is 83% which is the % of the drugs in the "sample cabinet" that are legitimate and we have already calculated that over 62% of the costs of the drugs in that "sample cabinet" are legitimate.

The exact truth IS NOT that the Pharma business model is illegitimate but the EXACT TRUTH is that the majority IS ILLEGITIMATE and IMMORAL.

Taking the profit from drugs that actually make a difference in a patients health and life for a price that is rationally related to what it should cost is moral and ethical. Sending 90,000 well paid parasites out into the market to influence the least informed Docs into spending more than twice what they could have and got the same results in plain and simple theft.

So, if we take the numbers from the study as a starting point then 62% of the revenue of Pharma should go away and with it, about 73% of the Pharma Sales Reps jobs. Well, parasites, it's happening with the Affordable Care Act aka "Obama Care".

Now, all of Fed Govt spending is subject to regulation and that is about 50% of all US Health Care spending. So, in all the Fed Govt healthcare programs the schedule will not allow prescribing branded drugs when generics are available. Then, when insurance companies that control the spending in the other half of the US Healthcare economy see how well Obama Care works for reducing and controlling spending on drugs, just see the results of the study in you don't believe it, then they will follow. In a few short years, there will be no market for trying to sell branded drugs to Docs because the insurance will not pay for them.

Pharma backed Obama Care because it delays the inevitable and also expands the Pharma market to more patients. They sold you guys down the river? hahahaha

And I really get a laugh out of the uber-business man who talks shit about free markets and capitalism when the healthcare market is already the most heavily regulated industry in the history of the world. I can't wait until that moron's ass hits the street. He'll be a door-to-door Bible and text book salesman for Glenn Beck University.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

This is the part of the article that I like the best. "In one of the first reports of its type --".

Get it, there will be many, many more. They are onto to you guys like a blood hound on the trail of an escaped sexual predator.
 



Re: Breakup of Physician, Drug Company Relationship Could Improve Health Care, Cut Co

"So, if we take the numbers from the study as a starting point then 62% of the revenue of Pharma should go away and with it, about 73% of the Pharma Sales Reps jobs."

Earth to moron.... No profit, no innovation. Obviously, Reps. do many things, not least of which is to contribute to the bottom line, which in return gives the fuel for innovation.

Sorry you don't understand how business works.

When I talk about free markets, it's not about what it is, but what it should be. Because the real parasites are you unemployed socialists that can't function without government giving you handouts from cradle to grave.