Average calls per day perceived as threat

[anonymous]

Anyone feeling the thumb pressing down, veiled threats of get your calls up per day? Covid has decreased access, not increased. So, the way it's conveyed is through a report that shows everyone else, then of course if you're not up to par, it's your fault.
Even though hospital systems and offices block reps.
Its just interesting that earlier this year it's take care of yourself, family, do hybrid virtual and live. I've found that it's going back to numbers driven. Nothing else matters.

 

[anonymous]

Anyone feeling the thumb pressing down, veiled threats of get your calls up per day? Covid has decreased access, not increased. So, the way it's conveyed is through a report that shows everyone else, then of course if you're not up to par, it's your fault.
Even though hospital systems and offices block reps.
Its just interesting that earlier this year it's take care of yourself, family, do hybrid virtual and live. I've found that it's going back to numbers driven. Nothing else matters.

 

[anonymous]

Anyone feeling the thumb pressing down, veiled threats of get your calls up per day? Covid has decreased access, not increased. So, the way it's conveyed is through a report that shows everyone else, then of course if you're not up to par, it's your fault.
Even though hospital systems and offices block reps.
Its just interesting that earlier this year it's take care of yourself, family, do hybrid virtual and live. I've found that it's going back to numbers driven. Nothing else matters.

Dude how old are you? Do what you have to frigging do!! Ass-wipes like you just piss me off, if you have to be told what to do, then go flip burgers, sweep a floor, clean a toilet, wash a car, and find a restaurant to take orders or clean a table.

 

[anonymous]

I don't know how long the above poster has been with AZ or any other major pharma company. My guess is less than one year. Your DM is getting heat from their boss. They had a business conference and was told that their district average is below that of the region. If sales numbers are also below the region the DM is being told that is the reason for the lag in sales. Yep, you are right the old frequency and reach argument which we all know is just one factor in sales results. EVERYONE knows that most calls are either a wave to the doctor or completely false. If a call was made it is of the ten second variety. AZ and the investor community look at calls of AZ vs the competition. If our calls are less it could be interpreted that AZ will lose sales to the competition and the stock would fall. Senior management lives and dies by the stock price and earnings per share. I've been around a very long time in many roles...rep, trainer, hospital rep and DM so I know what I'm talking about. Your job if you want to keep it is to stay under the radar and make your manager and their manager look good. They want seven selling calls a day report seven a day. Now be smart about it make sure the doctor is working that day and NEVER fake a doctor's signature. Stop worrying about this bullshit. Give them what they want and the problem goes away but be smart about it. Don't make excuses why you can't access customers. You keep up with that stance they will find someone else who can make call numbers.

 

[anonymous]

Interesting perspective. I've been with AZ over 15 yrs in more than one TA,role, etc. For the most part I agree with the DM's comments and making it work re the numbers. Control what you can mentality and stay under the radar. That's true. But I can also see the OP point as well. Many managers don't send out these type reports as they know better, and that they're good with just do the best you can, Covid changed everything mentality. Then there are managers that just cannot fathom not sending reports comparing rep to rep, because they are quite stupid and don't understand the differences between territory access levels. But yes, blame the top for creating numbers. Its an exercise in futility. Always has been.

 

[anonymous]

I don't know how long the above poster has been with AZ or any other major pharma company. My guess is less than one year. Your DM is getting heat from their boss. They had a business conference and was told that their district average is below that of the region. If sales numbers are also below the region the DM is being told that is the reason for the lag in sales. Yep, you are right the old frequency and reach argument which we all know is just one factor in sales results. EVERYONE knows that most calls are either a wave to the doctor or completely false. If a call was made it is of the ten second variety. AZ and the investor community look at calls of AZ vs the competition. If our calls are less it could be interpreted that AZ will lose sales to the competition and the stock would fall. Senior management lives and dies by the stock price and earnings per share. I've been around a very long time in many roles...rep, trainer, hospital rep and DM so I know what I'm talking about. Your job if you want to keep it is to stay under the radar and make your manager and their manager look good. They want seven selling calls a day report seven a day. Now be smart about it make sure the doctor is working that day and NEVER fake a doctor's signature. Stop worrying about this bullshit. Give them what they want and the problem goes away but be smart about it. Don't make excuses why you can't access customers. You keep up with that stance they will find someone else who can make call numbers.

Amen brother, hallelujah, you are SO right, great post!!!!

 

[anonymous]

I don't know how long the above poster has been with AZ or any other major pharma company. My guess is less than one year. Your DM is getting heat from their boss. They had a business conference and was told that their district average is below that of the region. If sales numbers are also below the region the DM is being told that is the reason for the lag in sales. Yep, you are right the old frequency and reach argument which we all know is just one factor in sales results. EVERYONE knows that most calls are either a wave to the doctor or completely false. If a call was made it is of the ten second variety. AZ and the investor community look at calls of AZ vs the competition. If our calls are less it could be interpreted that AZ will lose sales to the competition and the stock would fall. Senior management lives and dies by the stock price and earnings per share. I've been around a very long time in many roles...rep, trainer, hospital rep and DM so I know what I'm talking about. Your job if you want to keep it is to stay under the radar and make your manager and their manager look good. They want seven selling calls a day report seven a day. Now be smart about it make sure the doctor is working that day and NEVER fake a doctor's signature. Stop worrying about this bullshit. Give them what they want and the problem goes away but be smart about it. Don't make excuses why you can't access customers. You keep up with that stance they will find someone else who can make call numbers.

I totally agree with this post. You complain to the DM about lack of access it's not good for you. DM wants to see what you are going to do to increase access. If you give the impression you have given up you just might find yourself out the door. The DM will figure I will find someone who can get the job done. Everyone knows access is a problem and everyone knows as the poster above states most calls are crap at best. So they are right give them the metrics that they want and stay under the radar. They want ten calls a day lol I can that with a smile. It's so not worth getting upset over. Oh all major pharma companies are the same you think it is better with someone else..it's not.

 

[anonymous]

Calls do not equal sales. It what can you get the customers to do. In 1997 when I worked for Parke-Davis, we launched Lipitor, and my boss had NO sale calls goals. We called on the customers who could get us business.
That's all I had to do, my territory was 3rd in the nation to reach a 50% MS. Never got called on the carpet for calls. Maybe, so reps did, but not me.

 

[anonymous]

I don't know how long the above poster has been with AZ or any other major pharma company. My guess is less than one year. Your DM is getting heat from their boss. They had a business conference and was told that their district average is below that of the region. If sales numbers are also below the region the DM is being told that is the reason for the lag in sales. Yep, you are right the old frequency and reach argument which we all know is just one factor in sales results. EVERYONE knows that most calls are either a wave to the doctor or completely false. If a call was made it is of the ten second variety. AZ and the investor community look at calls of AZ vs the competition. If our calls are less it could be interpreted that AZ will lose sales to the competition and the stock would fall. Senior management lives and dies by the stock price and earnings per share. I've been around a very long time in many roles...rep, trainer, hospital rep and DM so I know what I'm talking about. Your job if you want to keep it is to stay under the radar and make your manager and their manager look good. They want seven selling calls a day report seven a day. Now be smart about it make sure the doctor is working that day and NEVER fake a doctor's signature. Stop worrying about this bullshit. Give them what they want and the problem goes away but be smart about it. Don't make excuses why you can't access customers. You keep up with that stance they will find someone else who can make call numbers.

OK, so 35 years in various pharmaceutical sales and sales management positions here. Part of it with AZ. So, what you are saying, November 19, 2020 is still, sadly true to what became rampant from the late 90s on. In the mid to late 90s, a 'commercial arms race' led by PFE and MRK, etc. went parabolic. Hire a massive amount of reps and managers with a shared voice! Wow, what a brilliant, blunt instrument marketing idea! The Wharton grads are simply amazing. And they all stole from one another as they do.

But, at this stage of my professional life reflecting honestly back at this industry, I am personally disgusted that this PhRMA's sales and marketing modus operandi became nothing but a fucking façade. It is a house of cards if they let be exposed as you perfectly describe above. And, still we ALL LIE or facilitate LIES or SEE NO EVIL? This is not a profession. This is a mockery of what it was in the 80s and most of the 90s when we could have routine, wide spread, legitimate conversations with clinicians to affect real change. Even in the early 2000s, some of us were doing consultative sales in Big Pharma with disease or therapeutic clinics in all types of settings. But in 2005, that all went away. This pandemic has helped make that painfully clear.

"Big Pharma" is all a joke. We have been paid well to LIE. Wow. I say, don't lie. I say, change this fake game, now. IF they need us in a given geography, make ONE or TWO , maybe THREE REAL CALLS a day Mr. or Ms. Rep on my team. And I know you tried and succeeded in todays low value pharma sales landscape. And, get this, we all should make far less money. Most calls are delivering food, samples, etc. with waves, bullshit and smiles. If I am wrong, share in detail all the legitimate calls you made last week, last month that clearly document sound clinical and therapeutic discussions that affected real prescriber or clinical care path change? Prove it with the truth, if you got it. But, sorry, we should make far less or a major downsizing is in order. Way, way over paid for what is really done or not done in the field, today. Now, bring the hate10 fold. Who cares? Bring it loud with all your rationalizations to negate 35 years doing this job. Grateful, some of us are very lucky and absolutely know the truth.

The way things are set up still up, end of the day, most of it is FRAUD. Glad I lived through the best era of both, Rock & Roll and Pharmaceutical sales as an actual, legitimate profession. At least one of those ship's long sailed.

 

[anonymous]

OK, so 35 years in various pharmaceutical sales and sales management positions here. Part of it with AZ. So, what you are saying, November 19, 2020 is still, sadly true to what became rampant from the late 90s on. In the mid to late 90s, a 'commercial arms race' led by PFE and MRK, etc. went parabolic. Hire a massive amount of reps and managers with a shared voice! Wow, what a brilliant, blunt instrument marketing idea! The Wharton grads are simply amazing. And they all stole from one another as they do.

But, at this stage of my professional life reflecting honestly back at this industry, I am personally disgusted that this PhRMA's sales and marketing modus operandi became nothing but a fucking façade. It is a house of cards if they let be exposed as you perfectly describe above. And, still we ALL LIE or facilitate LIES or SEE NO EVIL? This is not a profession. This is a mockery of what it was in the 80s and most of the 90s when we could have routine, wide spread, legitimate conversations with clinicians to affect real change. Even in the early 2000s, some of us were doing consultative sales in Big Pharma with disease or therapeutic clinics in all types of settings. But in 2005, that all went away. This pandemic has helped make that painfully clear.

"Big Pharma" is all a joke. We have been paid well to LIE. Wow. I say, don't lie. I say, change this fake game, now. IF they need us in a given geography, make ONE or TWO , maybe THREE REAL CALLS a day Mr. or Ms. Rep on my team. And I know you tried and succeeded in todays low value pharma sales landscape. And, get this, we all should make far less money. Most calls are delivering food, samples, etc. with waves, bullshit and smiles. If I am wrong, share in detail all the legitimate calls you made last week, last month that clearly document sound clinical and therapeutic discussions that affected real prescriber or clinical care path change? Prove it with the truth, if you got it. But, sorry, we should make far less or a major downsizing is in order. Way, way over paid for what is really done or not done in the field, today. Now, bring the hate10 fold. Who cares? Bring it loud with all your rationalizations to negate 35 years doing this job. Grateful, some of us are very lucky and absolutely know the truth.

The way things are set up still up, end of the day, most of it is FRAUD. Glad I lived through the best era of both, Rock & Roll and Pharmaceutical sales as an actual, legitimate profession. At least one of those ship's long sailed.

You sexually stimulated me with this post, I have a huge boner now!!!!!

 

[anonymous]

OK, so 35 years in various pharmaceutical sales and sales management positions here. Part of it with AZ. So, what you are saying, November 19, 2020 is still, sadly true to what became rampant from the late 90s on. In the mid to late 90s, a 'commercial arms race' led by PFE and MRK, etc. went parabolic. Hire a massive amount of reps and managers with a shared voice! Wow, what a brilliant, blunt instrument marketing idea! The Wharton grads are simply amazing. And they all stole from one another as they do.

But, at this stage of my professional life reflecting honestly back at this industry, I am personally disgusted that this PhRMA's sales and marketing modus operandi became nothing but a fucking façade. It is a house of cards if they let be exposed as you perfectly describe above. And, still we ALL LIE or facilitate LIES or SEE NO EVIL? This is not a profession. This is a mockery of what it was in the 80s and most of the 90s when we could have routine, wide spread, legitimate conversations with clinicians to affect real change. Even in the early 2000s, some of us were doing consultative sales in Big Pharma with disease or therapeutic clinics in all types of settings. But in 2005, that all went away. This pandemic has helped make that painfully clear.

"Big Pharma" is all a joke. We have been paid well to LIE. Wow. I say, don't lie. I say, change this fake game, now. IF they need us in a given geography, make ONE or TWO , maybe THREE REAL CALLS a day Mr. or Ms. Rep on my team. And I know you tried and succeeded in todays low value pharma sales landscape. And, get this, we all should make far less money. Most calls are delivering food, samples, etc. with waves, bullshit and smiles. If I am wrong, share in detail all the legitimate calls you made last week, last month that clearly document sound clinical and therapeutic discussions that affected real prescriber or clinical care path change? Prove it with the truth, if you got it. But, sorry, we should make far less or a major downsizing is in order. Way, way over paid for what is really done or not done in the field, today. Now, bring the hate10 fold. Who cares? Bring it loud with all your rationalizations to negate 35 years doing this job. Grateful, some of us are very lucky and absolutely know the truth.

The way things are set up still up, end of the day, most of it is FRAUD. Glad I lived through the best era of both, Rock & Roll and Pharmaceutical sales as an actual, legitimate profession. At least one of those ship's long sailed.

As another oldie but goodie, I am 100% in agreement with this post. It certainly doesn't help that marketing just recirculate marketers from one brand to another who NEVER carried a bag. Taking direction from them is like a Infantry Sargeant Major taking direction from an officer who spent his entire career in supply. Roll the eyes, yes yes sir/ma'am and do what you know works. I am beginning to think they end each day with a circle jerk or clit massage sharing how great each one of them is to each other.

Oh and the 2-3 calls a day....LOL! Maybe if there is a lunch with a multi-provider office otherwise, MAYBE one a day...MAYBE. At least in this area.

Personally, my soul is gone. Just waiting to be tapped on the shoulder with a mutual separation package. Good luck to all.

 

[anonymous]

As another oldie but goodie, I am 100% in agreement with this post. It certainly doesn't help that marketing just recirculate marketers from one brand to another who NEVER carried a bag. Taking direction from them is like a Infantry Sargeant Major taking direction from an officer who spent his entire career in supply. Roll the eyes, yes yes sir/ma'am and do what you know works. I am beginning to think they end each day with a circle jerk or clit massage sharing how great each one of them is to each other.

Oh and the 2-3 calls a day....LOL! Maybe if there is a lunch with a multi-provider office otherwise, MAYBE one a day...MAYBE. At least in this area.

Personally, my soul is gone. Just waiting to be tapped on the shoulder with a mutual separation package. Good luck to all.

Well my friend you are going to be waiting for a long time because their isn’t going to be a separation package anytime soon!! Just saying.

 

[anonymous]

Separation packages are so a thing of the past. You make me laugh. If there is a layoff you "tenured" reps can expect three months, if that.

 

[anonymous]

Separation packages are so a thing of the past. You make me laugh. If there is a layoff you "tenured" reps can expect three months, if that.

like for sure

 

[anonymous]

OK, so 35 years in various pharmaceutical sales and sales management positions here. Part of it with AZ. So, what you are saying, November 19, 2020 is still, sadly true to what became rampant from the late 90s on. In the mid to late 90s, a 'commercial arms race' led by PFE and MRK, etc. went parabolic. Hire a massive amount of reps and managers with a shared voice! Wow, what a brilliant, blunt instrument marketing idea! The Wharton grads are simply amazing. And they all stole from one another as they do.

But, at this stage of my professional life reflecting honestly back at this industry, I am personally disgusted that this PhRMA's sales and marketing modus operandi became nothing but a fucking façade. It is a house of cards if they let be exposed as you perfectly describe above. And, still we ALL LIE or facilitate LIES or SEE NO EVIL? This is not a profession. This is a mockery of what it was in the 80s and most of the 90s when we could have routine, wide spread, legitimate conversations with clinicians to affect real change. Even in the early 2000s, some of us were doing consultative sales in Big Pharma with disease or therapeutic clinics in all types of settings. But in 2005, that all went away. This pandemic has helped make that painfully clear.

"Big Pharma" is all a joke. We have been paid well to LIE. Wow. I say, don't lie. I say, change this fake game, now. IF they need us in a given geography, make ONE or TWO , maybe THREE REAL CALLS a day Mr. or Ms. Rep on my team. And I know you tried and succeeded in todays low value pharma sales landscape. And, get this, we all should make far less money. Most calls are delivering food, samples, etc. with waves, bullshit and smiles. If I am wrong, share in detail all the legitimate calls you made last week, last month that clearly document sound clinical and therapeutic discussions that affected real prescriber or clinical care path change? Prove it with the truth, if you got it. But, sorry, we should make far less or a major downsizing is in order. Way, way over paid for what is really done or not done in the field, today. Now, bring the hate10 fold. Who cares? Bring it loud with all your rationalizations to negate 35 years doing this job. Grateful, some of us are very lucky and absolutely know the truth.

The way things are set up still up, end of the day, most of it is FRAUD. Glad I lived through the best era of both, Rock & Roll and Pharmaceutical sales as an actual, legitimate profession. At least one of those ship's long sailed.

The above post is so true and should be read by anyone in this industry and more important anyone that wants to become a drug rep. Currently the job is mind numbing. After six months you've figured out it's all bullshit and ass kissing. Yep the pay and benefits are great and well above what we deserve. I see a day where pharma reps will not make presentations but leave literature and drop samples. If a provider has a question they will be referred to a nurse educator or some other real health professional. The job will pay between 35-40K a year at best. You will get a car and benefits. No retirement no 401K. DM's will have 20-30 reps and cover huge geography. No more lunches no more dinner programs. A college degree will not be required. The first company to do this model will be followed by the rest of the major players. You disagree? Please tell me why and keep the discussion civil.

 

[anonymous]

I doubt that will ever happen. Your hypothetical business model makes no sense. You claim it would be dropping samples and literature, correct. The why would the company pay reps at all? Just have home office email customers in order to receive sample requests and send it UPS. Literature drops? Systematically send marketing literature through the U.S. Mail. Then you claim there would be managers who would oversee reps who would be dropping samples and literature. Why would that be necessary? How would you coach a human being on how well they left literature & samples? Listen, I get your frustration. But pharmaceutical sales is the most unique job I can think of. We actually never "sell" anything. We educate. And by doing so in an effective and professional way, we change prescribing behavior for appropriate patients. A good rep is worth their weight in gold! There is no better way to drive sales than a having a rep in front of a customer. Yes, managed care is right up there, but it's passive and is just another choice on the menu. Your idea is flawed. Reps will always be here. What needs to change is how we are evaluated.

 

[anonymous]

I doubt that will ever happen. Your hypothetical business model makes no sense. You claim it would be dropping samples and literature, correct. The why would the company pay reps at all? Just have home office email customers in order to receive sample requests and send it UPS. Literature drops? Systematically send marketing literature through the U.S. Mail. Then you claim there would be managers who would oversee reps who would be dropping samples and literature. Why would that be necessary? How would you coach a human being on how well they left literature & samples? Listen, I get your frustration. But pharmaceutical sales is the most unique job I can think of. We actually never "sell" anything. We educate. And by doing so in an effective and professional way, we change prescribing behavior for appropriate patients. A good rep is worth their weight in gold! There is no better way to drive sales than a having a rep in front of a customer. Yes, managed care is right up there, but it's passive and is just another choice on the menu. Your idea is flawed. Reps will always be here. What needs to change is how we are evaluated.

You speak very wisely and true, the new evolution of the pharma rep is not just to give clinical benefits, but to help the account with reimbursement, patient education, and of course the clinical data as well. If anything was evident during this pandemic is the need to have face to face interaction with your accounts, yes Zoom meetings were fun in the beginning but it serves no impact like an old fashion face to face. Many of the accounts are COVID fatigue and looking forward to getting back to normality, in oncology, diagnosis is way down and many of my doctors are fearful that their patients are going to lose the battle with cancer because of missing that early detection. Yes somethings will change, but pharma companies still need reps in the field, and one thing about AZ, this company is much different from years ago, we have a more diverse portfolio of drugs, an amazing pipeline, rising stock, moving into double digit profits, a vaccine and antibody therapy contributing to erase the virus.

 

[anonymous]

The above two posts have much truth in their posts. However the fact is the majority of physicians do not allow rep visits. The VAST MAJORITY of hospitals do not allow reps. Will this change when this virus is over? I doubt it. Medical schools teach the "evils" of pharma reps. Will a pharma "cure" of this virus improve our standing with the medical community? Perhaps to some small degree. You cannot argue the fact that the majority of "real calls" are the 20 second variety. A great number of calls are faked. Managed care formularies rule. Most doctors are sick of prior authorizations. The vast majority of patients hate seeing reps in offices. Company training departments don't teach consultive selling they teach messaging....reading off of a computer screen. Multiple reps calling on doctors is totally insane. Reps and providers both hate it. Morale? I've never seen entire sales forces hating their jobs. Years ago lunches were done to improve access. Today, many doctors don't even attend the lunch or attend for ten seconds. We end up feeding the staff who complain if you forget the Mountain Dew. The frequency and reach model developed decades ago is crap yet the vast majority if not all of companies live and die by this model. Hopefully in spite of all I have said the model won't change and we all will retire with seven figure retirements. However I doubt it. How the model will change I'm not sure but I do think it will change and not for the better.

 

[anonymous]

The above two posts have much truth in their posts. However the fact is the majority of physicians do not allow rep visits. The VAST MAJORITY of hospitals do not allow reps. Will this change when this virus is over? I doubt it. Medical schools teach the "evils" of pharma reps. Will a pharma "cure" of this virus improve our standing with the medical community? Perhaps to some small degree. You cannot argue the fact that the majority of "real calls" are the 20 second variety. A great number of calls are faked. Managed care formularies rule. Most doctors are sick of prior authorizations. The vast majority of patients hate seeing reps in offices. Company training departments don't teach consultive selling they teach messaging....reading off of a computer screen. Multiple reps calling on doctors is totally insane. Reps and providers both hate it. Morale? I've never seen entire sales forces hating their jobs. Years ago lunches were done to improve access. Today, many doctors don't even attend the lunch or attend for ten seconds. We end up feeding the staff who complain if you forget the Mountain Dew. The frequency and reach model developed decades ago is crap yet the vast majority if not all of companies live and die by this model. Hopefully in spite of all I have said the model won't change and we all will retire with seven figure retirements. However I doubt it. How the model will change I'm not sure but I do think it will change and not for the better.

This topic continues to get debated, year after year, but lets be honesty, NOTHING has changed. Pharma companies need reps, they want the perception to have a “shared voice” to please the shareholders. As long as sales, profits, and market share are up, and cost are down nothing will change. The Merck’s, BMS, Novartis, Pfizer and of course AZ all compete with each other, and I know for a fact in oncology, we are fighting expansions because we don’t want to be falling over each other like they are. It’s good to know we are making a profit, stock price is high, pipeline strong, and all franchises continue to deliver. They other factor is the growth in China and the potential for further expansion and sales.

 

[anonymous]

This topic continues to get debated, year after year, but lets be honesty, NOTHING has changed. Pharma companies need reps, they want the perception to have a “shared voice” to please the shareholders. As long as sales, profits, and market share are up, and cost are down nothing will change. The Merck’s, BMS, Novartis, Pfizer and of course AZ all compete with each other, and I know for a fact in oncology, we are fighting expansions because we don’t want to be falling over each other like they are. It’s good to know we are making a profit, stock price is high, pipeline strong, and all franchises continue to deliver. They other factor is the growth in China and the potential for further expansion and sales.

The only thing that has changed is access and reputation of the industry is falling like a rock. The antiquated model has to change. Profits are high if this changes due to government regulations the model will change.