Current state of affairs One vet's opinion

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Anonymous

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I shudder to think that I am actually going to try and post here, but remember, it isn't likely to hurt any of your sales, as my Merial rep does not monitor this site.
My opinion (not that anyone should care) as a veterinarian is that Merial opened the barn door to the swarm of sales away from the vet's office. Yes, it would have occured to some extent over time, but it is awfully hard now to put the genie back in the bottle. I doubt that many of you were around when the Merck reps insisted that Ivermectin would not go OTC, equine vets pushed it and then Merck went OTC with it. Many of my older colleagues still won't talk to Merial reps.
Then allowing diversion to occur certainly propagated the situation to where it is today.
Now Betty White and everyone is claiming that vets are gouging people even if that is not the case.
Now with Fiproguard Plus, I do think that it is a game changer and maybe Merial doesn't care because the people in the decision making levels were getting the money whether the product was sold through vets or diverted to someone else.
I guess that in the long run, I always thought that my rep was a victim of all this like I was. I never thought that my rep was diverting, but I met her boss's boss and I would not be surprised if he was.
So, what are my feelings (not that anyone should care), Merial brought this on themselves, but it greatly changed the face of the industry, Bayer jumped in.
What do I do? I am still figuring it out, but yes, I am buying into the Vectra 3D hype, I am trying to position myself with product that my clients can't purchase for less than I can while still being ethical and doing what I think is best for the pet.
I am moving away from Heartgard and using more Interceptor and I am going to carry a minimal amount of Frontline for those who request it from us and I am going to use more Vectra3D (we have a lot of ticks in the area).
Rightly or wrongly, I blame Merial (management) for much of what this has come to and I feel that although we will lose a great deal of business in the long run, Merial reps (non diverters) are victims as well.
Thanks for listening. Now feel free to slam, like I see you can do so well.
 






Anonymous said:
I shudder to think that I am actually going to try and post here, but remember, it isn't likely to hurt any of your sales, as my Merial rep does not monitor this site.
My opinion (not that anyone should care) as a veterinarian is that Merial opened the barn door to the swarm of sales away from the vet's office. Yes, it would have occured to some extent over time, but it is awfully hard now to put the genie back in the bottle. I doubt that many of you were around when the Merck reps insisted that Ivermectin would not go OTC, equine vets pushed it and then Merck went OTC with it. Many of my older colleagues still won't talk to Merial reps.
Then allowing diversion to occur certainly propagated the situation to where it is today.
Now Betty White and everyone is claiming that vets are gouging people even if that is not the case.
Now with Fiproguard Plus, I do think that it is a game changer and maybe Merial doesn't care because the people in the decision making levels were getting the money whether the product was sold through vets or diverted to someone else.
I guess that in the long run, I always thought that my rep was a victim of all this like I was. I never thought that my rep was diverting, but I met her boss's boss and I would not be surprised if he was.
So, what are my feelings (not that anyone should care), Merial brought this on themselves, but it greatly changed the face of the industry, Bayer jumped in.
What do I do? I am still figuring it out, but yes, I am buying into the Vectra 3D hype, I am trying to position myself with product that my clients can't purchase for less than I can while still being ethical and doing what I think is best for the pet.
I am moving away from Heartgard and using more Interceptor and I am going to carry a minimal amount of Frontline for those who request it from us and I am going to use more Vectra3D (we have a lot of ticks in the area).
Rightly or wrongly, I blame Merial (management) for much of what this has come to and I feel that although we will lose a great deal of business in the long run, Merial reps (non diverters) are victims as well.
Thanks for listening. Now feel free to slam, like I see you can do so well.
Click to expand...

Dr. I do not want to slam, but I do want to address some things you mentioned. You mentioned you want to do what is best for the pet. You also mentioned you were buying into the Vectra hype because your clients were buying FL for less than you can sell it for. This does not address best medicine. Do you think the Vectra brand is better medicine than the Frontline brand?
Betty White (no longer affiliated with Pet Med Express) and others saying vets are "gauging" pet owners has nothing to do with Merial. That has to do with the changing ways of life and frankly another example of false representation in this world. I know vet's are not gauging and most people feel that way. You and your colleagues are in a great profession and do a great job! Unfortunately on line purchases of products, diverted products, and one sided commericals are the world we live in. Wouldn't it be nice if a group of veterinarians made a commercial to say that the profession does not gauge? Kind of like a political ad fight :) ? As you know, this happens in every market, not just on the veterinary side! You mentioned the Ivomec situation that happend many, many years ago. No one in senior management now was their at that time. That was a decision that was similar to what Bayer just did. What goes on with Merial and every other company and product is different. It is just part of the fact that times of changed. It is 2011, not 1980. That is not a slam, just reality. I ask you doctor; are you doing business differently than you did in 1980? I know Nike is, Target is, Pfizer is, Pizza Hut is, etc.....
Merial didn't change the face of the industry and Bayer followed. Bayer did their move that was completely different than any other company. They are big boys and girls and made their own decision. Merial didn't make them.
Lastly, Fiproguard brands. Trust me, I don't like this (if it ever comes). However, if a pet owner comes to the veterinary hospital to buy medicine, they are going to leave with medicine (or at least they better :) ) They are not price shopping 4 places for an $8 a month product. They are not car shopping. On the other hand, if pet owners are going to a store of any sort to buy product, they are going to buy product. Whether it is FL, Advantage, Fiproguard Plus, BioSpot, etc... Your market is not the people going online or shopping at the store for flea and tick control. Your market is your customers that come to you to buy flea and tick control and get your recommendations. Don't you think these should be your best medical recommendations? If you think Vectra is the best medical FL/Tick product out there than I can except that (although I disagree). Thanks for your time.
 



Drink much Cool-Aid?
Is Heartguars the best monthly medication on the market?

Generic medicine is 2011 and the economic world we live in. Your brands are now off patent. Methoprene / Fipronil combination generic will be brought to you by Novartis and Virbac soon enough.
 



Anonymous said:
Drink much Cool-Aid?
Is Heartguars the best monthly medication on the market?

Generic medicine is 2011 and the economic world we live in. Your brands are now off patent. Methoprene / Fipronil combination generic will be brought to you by Novartis and Virbac soon enough.
Click to expand...

Not so fast my Novartis friend. When is your's launching? Exactly, delayed, delayed, not happening.
 



I just ordered some FL and HG for those clients that want it to get me through until June, but I ordered less than I usually would have due to the current state of affairs.
My Novartis rep tells me that gheir's will be out end of April.
Not that she knows for sure though. I am hoping it is not sooner than that, so I will be able to get rid of what I just purchased. I imagine I will go over to the Novartis product for those that want fipronyl/methoprene (maybe Merial comes down to meet the price where I can compete?). Novartis has needed something with a tick claim for a long time. It might pay for them to just sell it to us at cost in order to couple it with Interceptor and eliminate Merial, as like it or not, I feel that there has been some very bad will created by the current Merial head (the guy who wrote us that ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS letter that FL wasn't going to go OTC the day before I found it on the shelves in Costco).
In my opinion that letter seemed like it might have been written by Momar Khadafi, it made so little sense.
 



Lastly I am a bit curious, it is none of my business, but I was just wondering is your sales director located in Georgia Robert C. as much of a, well how shall I say it, boob as he seems?
If so, I feel sorry for all that must work with him.
Another reason that I won't be upset to not carry Merial eventually.
If they just left things to the reps, you folks would probably do a lot better. This fellow going around, does not help the company (in my opinion that is).
I apologize if this comment is inappropriate.
 



Anonymous said:
Lastly I am a bit curious, it is none of my business, but I was just wondering is your sales director located in Georgia Robert C. as much of a, well how shall I say it, boob as he seems?
If so, I feel sorry for all that must work with him.
Another reason that I won't be upset to not carry Merial eventually.
If they just left things to the reps, you folks would probably do a lot better. This fellow going around, does not help the company (in my opinion that is).
I apologize if this comment is inappropriate.
Click to expand...

First of all, Novartis giving it away for free. Ok, do you give stuff away at your clinic for free? I hope not. Secondly, why would you go over to the Novartis product? If they are buying FL stay with it. If they are not, sell another molecule. The Novartis product is not going to do anything different for you.
 



The 2 reasons I would consider going with the Novartis product are;
1) Price (price is unknown at this time) . I was told by rep that price determination would be a down to the minute type decision. If I can be more competitive with Fiproguard that can't hurt. I was just playing a little devil's advocate when I was mentioning them selling it at cost. They don't have a tick product, they have a good HW/int parasite product, what if they sold it so they broke even on it, would they start to gain over a lot of Merial business? There is a fair amount of Merial bad blood due to the factors I have mentioned. It is only because I do feel that my rep is a good egg that I do much Merial business and I do quite a bit (for our state).

2) What I mentioned earlier. That letter from your leader that said that Frontline would not go OTC (right when it showed up in Costco).

Again, I feel my rep loses out as well as myself to the current state of affairs.
Just like the diverters do and management does, everyone has choices to make. I have to look at what best will keep customers getting product from me where I can educate them and have them use it rationally as well as who is most deserving of my business due to how straight up they have been with me or other factors.
The refusal to deal with diversion by management (because they seemingly didn't care, as they were still selling product) only hurt vets and reps that don't divert.
I have had management tell me in person (Hence the RC post previously) things that really didn't sit well. Most of which I have mentioned. I don't mean to be insulting (not insulting to call someone a boob, O.K. honestly, that was the nicest word I could come up with). Obviously I could be very wrong, I only chatted with him for 1/2 hour, which was enough.
I mean if they can tell how many seconds your gps tracker was outside my hospital, you surely can figure that the person in some backwash solo practice somewhere isn't legitimately buying pallets of product.
As far as the not going OTC letter, I still don't know what that was all about.
 



First of all "Doctor", vets don't come on this site. Only a pharma rep would think themselves so important that a vet might actually waste his or her valuable time checking out what the pharma reps are doing and chatting about. Give me a break!

Second, whoever you are, There is no such thing as a clinic that can't sell it for less than OTC can. And yes, vets have been gouging their clients...Betty is right! 100% markup is truly gouging. My God, people get all up in arms when the poor gas station or oil company dares to make 3 or 4 percent on their product and Vets make ONE HUNDRED PERCENT? Some even more? The manufacturers themselves are not making as much as vets make on these products!

Even if vets had to take the price down 50% They'd still be making a 50% profit which is excellent and unusual! That doesn't forgive Merial and Bayer for lying and being scumbags but don't tell me that these products are not profitable. If it weren't for these products vets would be either be out of business or operating out of a 30 year old mobile home wishing they would have studied harder to be MDs.
 



Regarding "The manufacturers themselves are not making as much as vets make on these products!"
Of course they are not. When you are selling 6 of a product or 3 of a product or even individual doses at a time, detailing the product, explaining their choices and sometimes even applying it for clients, how could you not ?
When someone makes and sells and wholesales a product by the millions of doses they don't expect to make as much per dose as the person on the retail side of things, selling the individual doses. The gas station analogy does not apply.
It has been a long time since we marked up product 100%, yes, probably around the time diversion and otc made us have to make the choice to decrease our mark up or not sell product and lose to other venues, but I don't see me or my colleagues getting too rich. I guess my point is that the cat is out of the bag, but we all lose as when Fiproguard plus is out and people are buying it for less than or about what I can by FL for, then I am SOL and you are, as I am ticked off and I try not to buy anything from Merial.
Anyway, I will leave these boards for you pharma folks, as I don't want to impose, I just was curious as to the "vibe" from your end of things, as it is a changing time and I do think that management decisions have screwed your reps. Yes, it is not just Merial, but the lying thing is hard to deal with.
 



Anonymous said:
When you are selling 6 of a product or 3 of a product or even individual doses at a time, detailing the product, explaining their choices and sometimes even applying it for clients, how could you not ?

It has been a long time since we marked up product 100%, yes, probably around the time diversion and otc made us have to make the choice to decrease our mark up or not sell product and lose to other venues, but I don't see me or my colleagues getting too rich.
Click to expand...

Point #1 - If only vets really did this. Clinics don't spend the time detailing these products that they should. They used to talk about fleas all of the time but got lazy when Advantage and Frontline arrived since they were supposed to be "set it and forget it". Now flea prevention is treated like fast food - do you want fries with that? And vets wonder why people don't see any value in buying from them versus the pet store up the street. If there's no value being added by the vet and the price is 5% more, why bother buying it there or going out of your way to swing by the vet when you go to the retail stores all of the time and you'll be there anyway? Wake up, MOST of the OTC stores don't sell it that much cheaper than vets anyway. Sometimes it's more expensive since there are few in-store discounts outside of the vet. Yes, Walmart is the exception but they are probably trying to build a market for their generic. Here's the thing, pet owners have been told for many years that the brands at the store are just like Frontline, are better than Frontline, repels when Frontline doesn't, has one of the same ingredients (methoprene) as frontline plus, blah blah blah. There are big signs at petco that try to steer you away from frontline and to one of their more profitable seargants or hartz brands. But pet owners still want Frontline, they don't give a rats ass about the molecule fipronil or whatever. To them it will be one more product claiming to be just like Frontline. So practice best medicine doc and don't worry about these very common business issues (it's called competition) that are easy to overcome.

Point #2 - That's just not true. AAHA and others publish average vet markups and it is indeed still about 100%. The manufacturers have given you discounts that you can offer (funded by them) for $30 off, free does or whatever. But the AVERAGE vet still at least marks this stuff up 100%. I'm a rep and let me tell you a little secret, my most advanced customers who really "get" both medicine and business, actually go up to 150% or more. Why? See my point above about providing value. When you don't give your clients a grocery store experience they feel like they should buy it from you because there is a perceived quality difference. Billions are made in the salon haircare industry using this same model. Same brand available at the drug store (through diversion just like we deal with in vet medicine) but people still buy it at their salon.
 






wow so many smart people on here. First off Novartis has a product that is made by Sergeants. So if the vet wants to drop Merial go buy FiproGuard for less than Novartis will sell theres for after all Novartis has to pay Sergeants to make the product they will be selling. Second of all Virbacs product has under a 5% market share after 2 years why? it does not work or they would have launched it here last year. And for Vectra if you want to sell that atleast get it from Banfield or VCA they private label it for them at a 3rd of the price a vet can buy vectra for. So you the vet pay full price so your competition can get it private label at a 3rd of the price. So many good things to talk about Why does Frontline have over a billion in sales??????? and OTC is not the answer..... IT WORKS......
 



Virbac? Virbac? 95% of Virbac salesforce got a job after spending 6 years completing a GED and 6 months as a Vet Tech.
Not one member of it's salesforce ever stepped foot on a University Campus.
 






I'm a veterinarian and in my more than 30 years in practice I have watched the flea control market evolve. Most of my clients use Frontline Plus, and most of those purchase it from me. But that is changing and is getting ready to turn upside down. I can compete with the pet stores, they charge $20 per dose. We price ours a little below PetMeds both in hospital and through our web store. Costco is problematic, they are satisfied with a 4% margin, difficult to compete with that. But most clients understand that we can't compete with Costco. The real nail in the coffin will be a generic equivalent available in stores at a lower cost than I can purchase the brand name from the manufacturer.

Unlike some of my colleagues I don't blame Merial. As long as it isn't illegal, EPA products are going to go otc. No way to stop it. No amount of tracking will stop it. It's the nature of the beast. It doesn't really matter to me if it is diverted or sold directly to the store. The effect on my practice is the same. The only company that has been disingenuous about it was Bayer. I called them a few weeks before they went public about selling their products direct to the pet stores and was told it was to "get a handle on the diversion problem." That's like screwing someone to get a handle on the pregnancy problem.

In the short term I think veterinarians need to stick with FDA products and let the pet stores fight over the EPA market. Would I be interested in yet another EPA product like Vectra? No thanks. Reminds me of Hill's who has brought out several "veterinary exclusive" wellness pet foods. If sales don't boom they discontinue it, if we successfully build a market for the product they take it otc and sell it to pet stores at a price not available to veterinarians. I'm not interested in playing that game.

Ultimately I think dispensing will be taken away from veterinarians altogether. I remember when many MD's had their own little pharmacy in their office, one stop shopping. The auto shop that did state inspections also did the repairs. No more, gone because of the perceived conflict of interest. Reminds me of a comment made to me by a retiring veterinarian on my first day on the job, only half in jest, "If you don't have the drugs to treat what you've diagnosed, diagnose something you do have the drugs to treat."
 



Youre exactly right doctor. Dont try to compete with otc when there are good products out there only sold through vets. Vectra has done a nice job so far. Have you checked out comfortis or trifexis yet? FDA, and does a great job.
 









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